MTW2Kingdoms - Expansion? Mod? Joke?

[zaher]

Hello all.

5 min ago i decided never get any TW game in future, unistalled Kingdoms and throwed them into window. Thats it. However, i will play MTW2.

You may ask why? My answer is :" because i want to play expansion for MTW2 and not some mod to MTW2" . I apreciate what Lusted did and doing for community, i tryed many mods, including LTC, but always returned to vanilla, and was hoping that expansion will be for MTW2 and not for LTC. Any modder can make his own mod, and then, some ppl will like it and some - not.
If CA got their TW brand , they must to keep it the same height.

May be i am overemotional right now, but when i playing Kingdoms i imagine, that warriors are thick, probably as result of plague. Superweak poor knights getting slaugtered by +7 missile attack units. I duno how nobles was existing in this situation, because general bodyguard never reach first line of enemy, even with cool partial plate armor. Well, 2 archer units can kill gen bodyguard without problems. To be short, cavalry is not cavalry anymore ( except missile cavalry ), and archers are just Terminators in modern terms. This remind me of RTW without patches units balance. May be knights are pages of archers? Or they exchanged their armor for bottle of vodka? I dont think so. To be sure, i stop to play Kingdoms.

I decided it when i noticed that most profitable units in Teutonic campaign are prussian archers, and i dont need to build nothing to win the game. Knights, which all came under different name and status, with stats like " good morale" and more, they all are just same yellow chickens for my Big Terrible Prussian archers. I dont agree with that. Anyone else?

[Rhedd]

So, I guess you prefer it the way it is in vanilla, where four hundred archers might kill a handful or so of militia before they hit the front line?

Where the same twenty score archers might down a knight or two, out of ninety?

No, I'm afraid I think you're crazy. Kingdoms isn't a mod, doesn't feel like a mod, and I'm happy to see archers more than a slight annoyance, now.

I think it's funny that everyone was nice enough to release some soon-to-be-official balance changes in a mod, and now everyone complains that Kingdoms is just a mod, because it uses those changes.

Are archers strong now? Yes, thankfully.

Are archers too strong? That's a matter of opinion.

Does that mean that Kingdoms isn't made to a professional standard, and is just a very expensive mod? Certainly not!

PS: I love it when people exaggerate when they complain. I just went and did a test. One unit of bodyguards, with an armor upgrade, against TWENTY units of Welsh Saethwyr.

That's 31 plate-armored knights versus 2241 of the very best archers in the game.

Thirteen knights reached the front line.

I did feel sorry for them, though.

Final death count upon route: 27 knights dead, 21 archers dead. So, even though they braved an INSANE hail of fire, they still took down nearly one man for each of them.

Did I mention, INSANE hail of fire?

[Fookison]

I'm with you Rhedd.
I am having a hoot with Kingdoms (and have with M2TW since it came out). I am finding the same complaints are now surfacing as when M2TW came out and everyone wanted to play the same tactics as RTW. The tactics are different, the game plays different and the units react differently. Perhaps if people would take the time to do some history research on what went on in those days and how tactics were played out, you would see that things have been done very well in these games. If you want to play Roman tactics, go to RTW, if you want medieval tactics go to M2TW. If you want to complain, then perhaps try another game........

[IrishArmenian]

I can't understand how you dislike mods, or Kingdoms. Okay, I like Kingdoms, but I see where some people's complaints are, but mods? Mods have endless possibilities?

[doorknobdeity]

Well, I guess he just knows how to have fun way better than we ever could.

[zaher]

I can't understand how you dislike mods, or Kingdoms. Okay, I like Kingdoms, but I see where some people's complaints are, but mods? Mods have endless possibilities?

I dont dislike mods. But usually i playing games 1 time. I may love game, but not getting addicted to it. So, if i like game, and the game is without critical flaws, i play its vanilla version and become happy. Another side is multiplayer modding, like MP servers in Neverwinter Nights game.

But i beleve mods are interesting things to play with, especially if you "addicted" to one game. But atm i got STALKER ( FPS),Guild Wars ( RPG),
MTW2 (RTS) and Movies ( sim ) on my PC and pray for time to play them. Some ppl got only one game installed and have no time to play it too. Some even dont get games installed. I affraid even to imagine myself in this situation

[The Stranger]

I'm with you Rhedd.
I am having a hoot with Kingdoms (and have with M2TW since it came out). I am finding the same complaints are now surfacing as when M2TW came out and everyone wanted to play the same tactics as RTW. The tactics are different, the game plays different and the units react differently. Perhaps if people would take the time to do some history research on what went on in those days and how tactics were played out, you would see that things have been done very well in these games. If you want to play Roman tactics, go to RTW, if you want medieval tactics go to M2TW. If you want to complain, then perhaps try another game........

medieval tactics generally was, rush in infantry vs infantry, cavalry vs cavalry, break through main line and charge back... cavalry defeated equals army defeated... the reserve of the losing army tries to change the tide of battle if not achieved cover the retreat ABAP... because more are killed in retreat than in battle...

I don't see the AI doing that...

[zaher]

Look, anyone have his own preferences. If Kingdoms is expansion for MTW2, then it must remain with same conception of units and tactics, because it happens in same medieval era. If they invited Lusted because many players like his mod, they must think about those who didnt like it. I may sound crazy, but i played LTC and dont like it. May be i am 1 from 100, but i just usually playing MTW2 and addicted to its vanilla version and wanted the same vanilla expansion. If Kingdoms was total New Game, i would say nothing. But for now.. I can imagine, that times was hard and many knights died from plague, and then, their pages took their place, but cant wear their armor, because knights was much stronger to wear armor with weight 30+ kg. And this armor was pretty expencive i imagine, and was made to protect from arrows and weapons without AP bonus.

And i was angry not because i was losing to AI. Actually i found the way, at least to play campaign vs AI as Teutonic Order. The secret is: 90% prussian archers and 10% other units. But i prefere archers underrated more than overrated. At least they must be weaker than every light cavalry ( not including missile cav ). Now, AI even dont use archers as scirmishers, it put them off-scirmish from start. And i talking about non-elite archers.

On other side, the price and upkeep of mounted knights is too big, compare to their actual abilities. I dont want to pay 800+ florins and 250 florins every turn for unit which can actually kill only routing units.

I prefere weaker archers and slower cav charges more than what exist now. How can 1 Kazak with +6 missile attack kill Order spearmen with plate and shield value 8? Only if they slept without armor.

Anyway, i am alone here, and nothing can be turned back. My last hope is if someone will produce Vanilla Mod

[icek]

Well Zaher you will going to lose in such discussion you started in such place because you argue againts english style of fighting and prefer typical european warfare with powerfull cavalry. Im with you in case of poor cavalry, where its a big that knights cannot succesfully make frontal charge because someone made from tw game a well-balanced blizzard's rts. Many guys not-from-that-island argue about the power of longbow as to not be practically able to penetrate every armor. But its a game, you have knew from this site that it will look like that.

[diotavelli]

Not sure if those complaining about overpowered archers have ever heard of the battles of Crecy, Poitiers or Agincourt?

I'm sure the French had similar misgivings when they discovered that bowmen in decent numbers could have a devastating impact on armoured knights; in fact, they almost have been as irritated as you are. Almost.

[Jack Lusted]

You may ask why? My answer is :" because i want to play expansion for MTW2 and not some mod to MTW2" . I apreciate what Lusted did and doing for community, i tryed many mods, including LTC, but always returned to vanilla, and was hoping that expansion will be for MTW2 and not for LTC. Any modder can make his own mod, and then, some ppl will like it and some - not.
If CA got their TW brand , they must to keep it the same height.

Well, as i said in the Kingdoms balance blog, most of the balancing was Jason Turnbulls(aka Palamedes) work, i just helped contribute to it. So when you were playing LTC you were effectively playing with an unoiffical version of the balance from version 2.3 onwards.

So the balancing in Kingdoms is the balance CA OZ wanted in the game, with some contribution and feedback from modders. It's not my balance, i just helped with it.

Not really me just putting my mod into Kingdoms, i joined the company months after the balancing for Kingdoms had basically been decided upon.

[lancelot]

Not sure if those complaining about overpowered archers have ever heard of the battles of Crecy, Poitiers or Agincourt?

Recent studys have shown that, at least with Agincourt, terrain and weather probably played a much more significant factor rather than what was historically attributed to the power of the longbow.

[The Stranger]

So, I guess you prefer it the way it is in vanilla, where four hundred archers might kill a handful or so of militia before they hit the front line?

Where the same twenty score archers might down a knight or two, out of ninety?

No, I'm afraid I think you're crazy. Kingdoms isn't a mod, doesn't feel like a mod, and I'm happy to see archers more than a slight annoyance, now.

I think it's funny that everyone was nice enough to release some soon-to-be-official balance changes in a mod, and now everyone complains that Kingdoms is just a mod, because it uses those changes.

Are archers strong now? Yes, thankfully.

Are archers too strong? That's a matter of opinion.

Does that mean that Kingdoms isn't made to a professional standard, and is just a very expensive mod? Certainly not!

PS: I love it when people exaggerate when they complain. I just went and did a test. One unit of bodyguards, with an armor upgrade, against TWENTY units of Welsh Saethwyr.

That's 31 plate-armored knights versus 2241 of the very best archers in the game.

Thirteen knights reached the front line.

I did feel sorry for them, though.

Final death count upon route: 27 knights dead, 21 archers dead. So, even though they braved an INSANE hail of fire, they still took down nearly one man for each of them.

Did I mention, INSANE hail of fire?

that would actually be quite realistic... although horses if unarmoured would have fallen easier...

[Rhedd]

that would actually be quite realistic... although horses if unarmoured would have fallen easier...

Yep, I didn't think it was too bad, myself.

I was honestly surprised that any of them made it through. I was trying to test the most impossible knight-vs-archer scenario I could imagine.