EB Preview :: Hegemones tou Stratou

[Boyar Son]

keep it up EB!

great stuff!

[Tarkus]

I'll add my piece here as well...you guys are doing an amazing job with the graphics! Keep up the fantastic work...as so many have said here before, I can't wait to see this all come together in the new version!

[Mithradates VI]

Baktria has an interesting shield.. o_O

Anyway, great work, they all look absolutely amazing!

That was my thought too. Both of them.

I don't think I'll ever look at Mainads the same way again. Or however you spell that word.

[hoom]

Wot! No Eleutheroi General?
Can't you at least put some sort of placeholder?

[Intrepid Adventurer]

Yes, there it is, I soiled myself. Thanks, EB-team. ;)

You know what the first thing is what comes to mind, when I see those shields? What a waste to carry them into battle. Imagine someone working weeks on painting something like that, carefully, on those shields. Then imagine him seeing the paint ripped off in the first silly skirmish the army comes across. What a waste, what a waste.

Nice Bactrian tactic, btw. Just put naked ladies on your shield, that'll distract those barbarians long enough for you to kick their behinds.

[paullus]

Wot! No Eleutheroi General?
Can't you at least put some sort of placeholder?

...but we like the vanilla eleutheroi general...

[Thaatu]

The orange beard is quite nice.

[Watchman]

...but we like the vanilla eleutheroi general...

Wotta perv.

[LusitanianWolf]

Amasing job!!!!!
EB team will ever be able to surprise me!!!!!

[Bactron]

Amazing work, guys!

Can't wait for the release.

[spirit_of_rob]

Wot! No Eleutheroi General?
Can't you at least put some sort of placeholder?

Who said there isnt one? Not all of the Eleuteroi are Greeks I know for a fact theres one wandering around with a green lightsaber

[hoom]

Well, since there were Greeks at the Eastern extremity of the map through to at least the East coast of Iberia, I'd think the Eleutheroi general skin that would fit best would be very Greek looking

[Foot]

Well, since there were Greeks at the Eastern extremity of the map through to at least the East coast of Iberia, I'd think the Eleutheroi general skin that would fit best would be very Greek looking

Not that! greek. We've made a rebel general already.

Foot

[Watchman]

I've no doubt it's going to be truly a sight to see.

[spirit_of_rob]

Greek looking perhaps but not Greek

[hoom]

Well, pleased to hear it anyway, its the only vanilla RTW skin left in the present game & awfully jarring

[pezhetairoi]

Cool skins, people, cool skins. Baktria's shield is real cool. XD

[Watchman]

From "Random Musings", are you you going to make a "modesty patch" version of the Baktrian shield too ?

[pseudocaesar]

From "Random Musings", are you you going to make a "modesty patch" version of the Baktrian shield too ?

Why, you would have to search really closely to see it, besides...nudity in art and culture like these have no need to be censored. Thats like putting a black bar on the statue of David, you just dont, its not considered pornographic in nature.

[abou]

You do know that Watchman was joking and making a tongue-in-cheek reference to a post on TWC, right?

[pseudocaesar]

Yeh i get that, i just wanted to say what i thought on the subject, i wasnt abusing his post per say, just the thing in general. Its everywhere, such as the modesty for the Gaesetae, the fact is...they fought naked, deal with it. meh, i guess im overreacting but i just see it all the time lol.

[abou]

You're a good man, pseudocaesar.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Let's move on folks.

[pseudocaesar]

You're a good man, pseudocaesar.

:P Cheers! On Topic: What were your sources for the generals?

[keravnos]

This would take pages upon pages to answer, but all effort was taken to ensure Historical authenticity.

Now, I understand this must sound corny, so here is one of them...

For Epeiros, the statuette of a General found at Dodona, presumably the dedicatory image of a "Strategos" of Epeiros, and quite possibly a King of Pyrrhos' lineage. The statue has been identified as belonging to "Kineas", Pyrrhos' most trusted friend and general, but that too is conjectural, at best.

I understand that there are a lot of Pyrrhos statues uncovered over the years, and a reconstruction at present day Arta, then Ambrakia, his capital, but those are all either Romani-era and reconstructions of Romani era statues. The one used was deffinitely Epeirote, and hellenic to boot. One of its most characteristic qualities is the fact that the one wearing it is wearing the latest novelty mail, under his lamellar coated linothorax. It has been theorized that bronze bolts were holding those Iron "shards" in place/reinforcing the cuirass as well. While a sight to behold in battle, it really is a great cuirass as there are 3 different layers of defense for the one wearing it, Iron lamellae on top, linothorax, leather underneath that and under it all a mail hauberk (and of course some kind of padding below that-Not one person can wear a mail hauberk without something below that-Thanks Watchman). Deffinitely what a Strategos would need to go to war with and survive. Besides, seeing that his Grandfather, Alexandros I of Epeiros was killed while fighting Samnites in nearby Pandosia in 331 BCE, it would be absolutely sure that he would go for broke, so far as his own defense was concerned. He knew that his enemies would try to kill him, so he would probably try to be as "hard to kill" as possible.









Then there was the depiction of the battle in heraklea, when he nearly died.

he began the charge,
conspicuous by his rich and beautiful armor, and letting it be seen

and changing
his scarf and his arms with Megacles, one of his friends, and,
obscuring himself, as it were, in his, charged upon the Romans

Dexous, who, snatching away his helmet and his robe, rode at
once to Laevinus, holding them up, and saying aloud he had killed
Pyrrhus.

some other indications on what kind of armor he used, was the fact that...

until Pyrrhus,
understanding what had happened, rode about the army with his face
bare, stretching out his hand to his soldiers, and telling them aloud
it was he

thus his helmet must be obscuring his face. Both the one he wore initially and the subsequent one. Much like the helmet the Epeiros' general wears ingame. It is a Chalkidian bronze helmet (please note that the nose piece is missing from the below helmet)

(For more on its decoration, see below)

A helmet with a "ram" cheek was selected for various reasons. One of them was the fact that in Epeiros, one of the chief "honorary" positions was "chief herder". The reason for that would be that Epeiros, then and now is largely mountainous, goat country, the "highland of Greece" in dire contrast to rich, filled with valleys Makedonia, and flatland Thessalia.

Crest and plumes, there are coins that depict him as he is shown, and illustrators (Including the famous and recently deceased one, McManus) have also painted Epeirote troops as having either 3 crests in their helmets or 1 crest and two plumes. Their leader could have no less.

The plume arrangement selected, as well as being both a reference to the mountainous and hardy nature of the Epeirotes, is also a direct reference to the "bulls" of Epeiros, of whom the ancient writers speak of. When seen in the midst of battle your eyes are drawn towards him, and it is exactly as is the ancient greek text which is translated (roughly) as...

he began the charge,
conspicuous by his rich and beautiful armor, and letting it be seen

in here...
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/674

Another source, calls his cloak/robe "... red and had many golden designs in it"

here is a woman holding in hand the greaves of Achilles. As Aiakides traced their ancestry to Neoptolemos, son of Achilles (also known as Pyrrhos) those would be great to have for the General of Epeiros. This goes on the "knee" part of the greave


Then on the "leg" part, the thunderbolt, famous Epeirote symbol, the "thunderbolt" of "Zeus Keraunios", Patron God of Dodona (along with Dione his Epeirote-only godess.)


In this coin, depicting a shield where the "ΜΟΛΟΣΣΩΝ" (Of Molossians) is barely read.

the two plumes possibly be something like the following, in the Coin of Athena struck by Pyrrhos in 281 BCE, VERY near in the time when the events took place in Heraklea, thus it would be easy to assume that this would be the idea of a "VERY ORNATE and IMPOSING" helmet. Does that Hercules guy in the other side of the coin remind you of anything?
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...cID=202&Lot=37


--Please note that "Athenas" wore the most ornate and imposing helmets there were. I think it would be safe to assume that the Crest/plumes configuration of Pyrrhos could be something of equal magnificence. The Battle of Heraclea took place in 280 BC between the Romans under the command of Consul Publius Valerius Laevinus and the combined forces of Greeks from Epirus, Tarentum, Thurii, Metapontum, and Heraclea under the command of King Pyrrhos of Epeiros.

This could VERY WELL also be a "Victory" coin. The triple crested helmet has been depicted as close to that on coin, but with the model limitations in mind. So the 2 crests (who align themselves almost vertically to the center one) became plumes (All Hellenistic generals share the same model - I know it doesn't look it, but they do. Imagine what a FANTASTIC job Stephan25 has done)

--edited because some details were in a different place. EBH is quite big, you know...


As you see the EB team has done its homework. Now I am sure that there are a lot of thinngs we could do differently. Still, this is how it was done and these are some of the reasons. Now, please don't expect this kind of account for EVERY single ONE of our generals or our units too.

I know it sounds corny to hear and read, but we DO our homework, and ALL of our units have references. The team chooses to spend whatever time it has trying to improve the mod, not "justify" our choises. We have a Unit Dictator, who can be a very unpleasant person if EB criteria aren't met

I took the time to gather all data and present to you, whereas there are other things I should be doing, just to let your minds at ease on that very fact. We try our LEVEL best to be as authentic and true to the sources as we can. There is no way to accurately 100% portray a world that is more than 2.000 years old, but we try. There isn't much we can gain from EB but we try to be as correct as possible. No corners cut. ..

[Watchman]

One of its most characteristic qualities is the fact that the one wearing it is wearing the latest novelty mail, under his lamellar coated linothorax. It has been theorized that bronze bolts were holding those Iron "shards" in place/reinforcing the cuirass as well. While a sight to behold in battle, it really is a great cuirass as there are 3 different layers of defense for the one wearing it, Iron lamellae on top, linothorax, leather underneath that and under it all a mail hauberk.

...and some kind of padding under the mail, don't forget. That's heavy cataphract-level body armour certainly; either of the metal layers is HC enough by its lonesome already, together they ought to be night impenetrable.

Going to weigh a ton though, but then, I imagine generals didn't exactly take walks in that outfit.

[keravnos]

Great catch. Edited to include that!

[Lysander13]

As you see the EB team has done its homework. Now I am sure that there are a lot of thinngs we could do differently. Still, this is how it was done and these are some of the reasons. Now, please don't expect this kind of account for EVERY single ONE of our generals or our units too.

I know it sounds corny to hear and read, but we DO our homework, and ALL of our units have references. The team chooses to spend whatever time it has trying to improve the mod, not "justify" our choises. We have a Unit Dictator, who can be a very unpleasant person if EB criteria aren't met

I took the time to gather all data and present to you, whereas there are other things I should be doing, just to let your minds at ease on that very fact. We try our LEVEL best to be as authentic and true to the sources as we can. There is no way to accurately 100% portray a world that is more than 2.000 years old, but we try. There isn't much we can gain from EB but we try to be as correct as possible. No corners cut. ..

I for one really appreciated your entire post Keravnos. Not because i wanted an entire account on how the EB team came to a decision on a specific general or a unit. Simply, it was just the information you provided in the post and how it relates to EB that i find extremely interesting. This is a case where the process is just as fascinating as the end product...at least for me anyway....good stuff....

[Long lost Caesar]

awesome work on the generals AND the shields, it all looks beautiful!
luvin the pimp on the baktrian shield

[Watchman]

Great catch. Edited to include that!

You're welcome.

Out of curiosity, when was it people actually figured out how to make proper mail sleeves ? I understand the join at the shoulder/armpit was long a stumbling block - or did they just use separate pieces for the arms ?