Which (mainland Greek faction) is superior?

[gran_guitarra]

Okay, here is my question.
Which of the factions in mainland Greece (a.k.a. The Makedonians, Epeirotes, and Koinon Hellenon) do you think has a superior unit line-up?

I think that the Koinon Hellenon have the worst. Thier phalanxes are weaker and less useful than the Epeirote and Makedonian phalanxes, with less people, worse stats, and smaller pikes. Their spearmen units are also inferior or equal to the counterparts in the Makedonian or Epeirote line-up. The Epeirote have Illyrians, which are superior to the Hellenic versions, and the Makedonians have Theurophoroi as well, and Pheraspidai/Hypaspitai, both of which are superior to Thorakitai. In terms or Regionals the Koinon Hellenon are also worse off. If the war drags on (peace settlements are made/a stalemate is achieved) the Epeirotes can field Italic units (Tarantine Elites, Lucanian Light infantry, Samnites), while the Makedonians can field Getic auxiliaries and Galatians from the Northeast. The Koinon Hellenon can, at best, get Toxotai Kretikoi if they conquer Krete during a peace period. The best Greek Cavalry is also a joke compared to Hetairoi or Molossos Agema. The Koinon Hellenon have one unit that is truly capable of outshining whatever it faces from the Epeirotes/Makedonians, the Hoplitai Spartiatai. These guys are better (marginally) than Hypaspitai, and capable of doing the job quite well.

Between the Makedonians and Epeirotes its really a question of what we look at. The cavalry is pretty even, with the Makedonians BEST cavalry being slightly better than the Epeirote one. Skirmishers and ranged units are also pretty much the same. Regionals are about even. The Epeirotes can get Italic unit, but the Makedonians can get Getic and Galatian units. The phalanxes (their bread and butter) are about even, excepting the highest level, which the Epeirote's have an advantage in. The spearmen are better for the epirote side, with the Illyrians outshining the Makedonians by a quite a bit. The Makedonian uber elites, Pheraspidai and Hypaspitai, are about even with Illyrioi Thorakitai, if a little better.

I think that the Epeirotes would have a slight advantage in unit line-up. The Makedonians make a close second, and the Koinon Hellenon are the weakest of the three.

[Anastasios Helios]

Let us look at position. A Hellenic army can defend the isthmus of Cornith and build up a great economy in the islands and the Peloponnese. Makedon must worry about Thracians, Hellenes, Pontioi, Seleukids, and Eperios has Rome to deal with. The Koinon Hellenon definitely has the best position between the three.

Also...I'd rather have the Koinon Hellenon's army in the hand of a competent general than the other two Phalangites, Illyrian and Getae Mercenaries, and superior horses in the hands of a noob.

[Ice]

I couldn't resist.

[Bellum]

Also...I'd rather have the Koinon Hellenon's army in the hand of a competent general than the other two Phalangites, Illyrian and Getae Mercenaries, and superior horses in the hands of a noob.

How about the AI? :P

[Bootsiuv]

The KH are no push-overs....and they have access to good regional cavalry which make up for that weakness in there armed forces. The Bodyguard hoplites and Spartans are ruthless.

I would definitely take the KH over the other two simply because of their starting position. The pelleponese is easily defendable, as is Attika and the islands.

That being said, the other two probably do have a superior army. The KH is a little outdated for the game period. The successor armies were superior to classical armies....throw in Epeirotes ability to recruit elephants in Ambrakia, and they definitely have a healthy line-up. They also have to fight Rome, and Makedon has to worry about the barbarians to the north, the Epeirotes to the west, and the KH to the south....not exactly an easy starting position.

Just my 2 cents

[blank]

Epirotes have ugly green tunics and KH has too few regionals, so i'd say Macedon

[pezhetairoi]

The KH are no push-overs....and they have access to good regional cavalry which make up for that weakness in there armed forces.

Hey bootsiuv, what regional cavalry are we speaking of? I wasn't aware they had any good cavalry at all unless they conquered Scythian parts...

[Geoffrey S]

I couldn't resist.

[gran_guitarra]

We are not taking into account a player's strength or weakness. A good player can use the Sab'yn (the most incomplete faction) to defeat a noob using the Romanii.

The Koinon Hellenon are also pretty screwed in position. They start off with three cities only. One of them has an army large enough to take it nearby, the other is undermanned, and the last one is an island which is making negative thousands of mnai.
The Epeirote have, thanks to their elephants, the power to take most of nothern Greece, leaving the Makedonians and Koinon Hellenon to fight each other in Attika and the Peloponese. They can also ship over thier army from Tarentum (like they did historically) and have an even bigger and better army to take out their enemies with.
The Makedonians have a concentrated and focused Kingdom. They have large enough armies and coffers to, by turn 2, have enough forces to take on the Koinon Hellenon and Epeirotes at the same time.
The Epeirotes can sacrifice Tarentum at the start because it will rebel to them every so often, giving them a platform to use in Italia. The Makedonians are in no threat from the Arche Seleukeia until they move into Ionia, at which point they can get alliances with all the Seleukids enemies.

The Koinon Hellenon's position is also inferior to the other's. The fact that their armies are scattered doesn't help either.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I would say that my favourite out of those three is Makedonia. They have superior elites and cavalry. They have a organized staring possition. And my two favorite: they historically were the dominant faction out of those three; and they are the best faction for 'recreating Alexander'.

[Olaf The Great]

I like koinon hellenon because you can have a "Roman army" with the theurophoroi type units. Classical phalanx(hoplites, spartans, ekdromoi etc), or a successor phalanx based army(with mecenaries or the Iphrikrates, although the Iphirkrates aren't that great or numerous)

[Beefy187]

I like the long campeign better then the short one. Black units are sexier. So Makedonian are better.

[mAIOR]

I would say that my favourite out of those three is Makedonia. They have superior elites and cavalry. They have a organized staring possition. And my two favorite: they historically were the dominant faction out of those three; and they are the best faction for 'recreating Alexander'.

I wuldn't call them dominante. Franqly, until Phyrrus death the Epirotes were the rising star.

Cheers...

[pezhetairoi]

KH is undoubtedly the worst. If their hoplites had 200 instead of 160 per unit, and their phalanxes the same, then perhaps more could be said. But as it is, they are definitely going to be outmanned, unit for unit. Position is quite crappy too, none of the cities are mutually supporting. Athenai is likely to be besieged from turn 1, and Sparte can't make it there in time to make any difference. And Rhodos...Rhodos isn't near -anywhere-. You may as well be playing three one-city factions at the same time and it wouldn't make any difference. Greek cavalry is incredibly poor, but that is an inherent weakness that we can't really solve. Best I can see is to make the Hippeis Thessalikoi available to them as a regional if they get Demetrias, to even things out with a decent medium cavalry. But otherwise, historically the Greeks were strong in infantry and weak in cavalry, so that has to be the context we must function in. With stronger infantry, I think we can make a case for KH to stand up to Epeiros, though Makedonia is still a bit dicey.

The KH have infantry to be proud of. In stats they can counter anything the enemy can throw at them. It's only the numbers that let them down. I'll say, though, the most -varied- lineup is Makedonia's and where I'm concerned, that's important to me because I like seeing lots of flashy new cool units filling the recruitment tab in the city menu rather than the same old monotonous units of big shielded fellas. And further, the KH skins are strangely coloured. Hoplitai look drab, all gray and black, and the peltastai look like a fashion disaster with their blue clashing with red.

Okay i'm venturing far afield here and rambling. 'nuff said.

[Gazius]

The Koinon Hellenon are also pretty screwed in position. They start off with three cities only. One of them has an army large enough to take it nearby, the other is undermanned, and the last one is an island which is making negative thousands of mnai.

I'd just like to point out that no city loses you money. Ever. That number is just a ratio to how much of their income goes towards supplying troops. In all actuality, that's probably the city making you the most money if you check the trade screen.

I like Epeiros myself for the faction goals. I never understood why Makedon's goals aren't the recreation of Alexander's empire.

[Watchman]

Probably because the Hindu Kush is bloody far away.

The game allocates army upkeep (and agent wages and sundry) by city size, doesn't it ? Since it's a lump sum deduction from your income anyway it doesn't have any practical effect as such, other than it looking mildly odd how your biggest settlement tends to hang around the red...

I find it useful for getting a "feel" of how your economy's doing from the campaign map, myself. You know that when the big places are on the positive you're doing damn well money-wise...

[Anastasios Helios]

Off topic I know, but how did the Eperiots recruit the mumakil in Eperios anyway. Was there a northern version of the African mumakil that ran wild in Eperios until their extinction at the hands of the Roman Gladitorial Games and Pyrrhos' unceasing wars? Or did he just recruit them from India or something?

[Cyclops]

Okay, here is my question.
Which of the factions in mainland Greece (a.k.a. The Makedonians, Epeirotes, and Koinon Hellenon) do you think has a superior unit line-up?

[snip]

I think that the Epeirotes would have a slight advantage in unit line-up. The Makedonians make a close second, and the Koinon Hellenon are the weakest of the three.

I haven't played Epiros at length. They are a somewhat elastic but quite defeatable opponent for the other two. My impression of their roster is it a powerful one at the top end but patchy and regional. They definitely have the best starting position: the threat of Rome is nothing compared to the advantage of having your 7 star general sitting on a Mumak at the gates of Pella on turn 1.

Makedon has a powerful roster from the bottom of the tree right to the top. Most factions have some gaps at some point. Maco's have useful core and regional units at almost every MIC level in every starting and adjacent city. Every direction they go they seem to get units they can use. There is very little "barracks browser dissapointment" for the Antigonids.

If anything their units get better at the top as it flowers into the classic Diadochi line-up. To my mind the Agrianes are the ninja-icing on the cake, but there are also lovely surprises like elite pike in Asia Minor and Hypasts in Thrace (IIRC).

The KH have a fingernail grip on Hellas and a healthy line-up of hoplites: healthy and stodgy like porrige. The foot-guards for the generals make them admirably suited to city defense but its a dull slog to win field battles at sandal pace.

The Maco's have the roster to win skirmishes, footslogs, hammer and anvil field battles, "Cannae" type defensive annhilations, seige assaults, basically they are equiped to win any sort of battle. Only HA armys would worry them in open battle, but their (VG Stamina) Prodromoi give them a chance.

Elephants make for positive results, and Epiros has some regionals to allow a flexible approach, against most opponents. They are better set up to win in 272, but that isn't a result of a superior roster.

KH start on the back foot, masking their skewed unit selection. Can they get Tarantine Cav? A few regional tidbits might accelerate expansion but they are a creeping menace at best. I reckon they are a beautifully represented "faction" and their unit roster represents a genuine challenge to an experienced player.

I enjoyed playing the KH a lot despite unhappy experiences fighting the (Polybian) Romans. Massive casualties from walking into pilae forced me into mandatory enslavement of conquered settlements.