Which (mainland Greek faction) is superior?

[gran_guitarra]

Okay, here is my question.
Which of the factions in mainland Greece (a.k.a. The Makedonians, Epeirotes, and Koinon Hellenon) do you think has a superior unit line-up?

I think that the Koinon Hellenon have the worst. Thier phalanxes are weaker and less useful than the Epeirote and Makedonian phalanxes, with less people, worse stats, and smaller pikes. Their spearmen units are also inferior or equal to the counterparts in the Makedonian or Epeirote line-up. The Epeirote have Illyrians, which are superior to the Hellenic versions, and the Makedonians have Theurophoroi as well, and Pheraspidai/Hypaspitai, both of which are superior to Thorakitai. In terms or Regionals the Koinon Hellenon are also worse off. If the war drags on (peace settlements are made/a stalemate is achieved) the Epeirotes can field Italic units (Tarantine Elites, Lucanian Light infantry, Samnites), while the Makedonians can field Getic auxiliaries and Galatians from the Northeast. The Koinon Hellenon can, at best, get Toxotai Kretikoi if they conquer Krete during a peace period. The best Greek Cavalry is also a joke compared to Hetairoi or Molossos Agema. The Koinon Hellenon have one unit that is truly capable of outshining whatever it faces from the Epeirotes/Makedonians, the Hoplitai Spartiatai. These guys are better (marginally) than Hypaspitai, and capable of doing the job quite well.

Between the Makedonians and Epeirotes its really a question of what we look at. The cavalry is pretty even, with the Makedonians BEST cavalry being slightly better than the Epeirote one. Skirmishers and ranged units are also pretty much the same. Regionals are about even. The Epeirotes can get Italic unit, but the Makedonians can get Getic and Galatian units. The phalanxes (their bread and butter) are about even, excepting the highest level, which the Epeirote's have an advantage in. The spearmen are better for the epirote side, with the Illyrians outshining the Makedonians by a quite a bit. The Makedonian uber elites, Pheraspidai and Hypaspitai, are about even with Illyrioi Thorakitai, if a little better.

I think that the Epeirotes would have a slight advantage in unit line-up. The Makedonians make a close second, and the Koinon Hellenon are the weakest of the three.

[Anastasios Helios]

Let us look at position. A Hellenic army can defend the isthmus of Cornith and build up a great economy in the islands and the Peloponnese. Makedon must worry about Thracians, Hellenes, Pontioi, Seleukids, and Eperios has Rome to deal with. The Koinon Hellenon definitely has the best position between the three.

Also...I'd rather have the Koinon Hellenon's army in the hand of a competent general than the other two Phalangites, Illyrian and Getae Mercenaries, and superior horses in the hands of a noob.

[Ice]

I couldn't resist.

[Bellum]

Also...I'd rather have the Koinon Hellenon's army in the hand of a competent general than the other two Phalangites, Illyrian and Getae Mercenaries, and superior horses in the hands of a noob.

How about the AI? :P

[gran_guitarra]

We are not taking into account a player's strength or weakness. A good player can use the Sab'yn (the most incomplete faction) to defeat a noob using the Romanii.

The Koinon Hellenon are also pretty screwed in position. They start off with three cities only. One of them has an army large enough to take it nearby, the other is undermanned, and the last one is an island which is making negative thousands of mnai.
The Epeirote have, thanks to their elephants, the power to take most of nothern Greece, leaving the Makedonians and Koinon Hellenon to fight each other in Attika and the Peloponese. They can also ship over thier army from Tarentum (like they did historically) and have an even bigger and better army to take out their enemies with.
The Makedonians have a concentrated and focused Kingdom. They have large enough armies and coffers to, by turn 2, have enough forces to take on the Koinon Hellenon and Epeirotes at the same time.
The Epeirotes can sacrifice Tarentum at the start because it will rebel to them every so often, giving them a platform to use in Italia. The Makedonians are in no threat from the Arche Seleukeia until they move into Ionia, at which point they can get alliances with all the Seleukids enemies.

The Koinon Hellenon's position is also inferior to the other's. The fact that their armies are scattered doesn't help either.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I would say that my favourite out of those three is Makedonia. They have superior elites and cavalry. They have a organized staring possition. And my two favorite: they historically were the dominant faction out of those three; and they are the best faction for 'recreating Alexander'.

[Olaf The Great]

I like koinon hellenon because you can have a "Roman army" with the theurophoroi type units. Classical phalanx(hoplites, spartans, ekdromoi etc), or a successor phalanx based army(with mecenaries or the Iphrikrates, although the Iphirkrates aren't that great or numerous)

[Beefy187]

I like the long campeign better then the short one. Black units are sexier. So Makedonian are better.

[Geoffrey S]

I couldn't resist.

[mAIOR]

I would say that my favourite out of those three is Makedonia. They have superior elites and cavalry. They have a organized staring possition. And my two favorite: they historically were the dominant faction out of those three; and they are the best faction for 'recreating Alexander'.

I wuldn't call them dominante. Franqly, until Phyrrus death the Epirotes were the rising star.

Cheers...

[pezhetairoi]

KH is undoubtedly the worst. If their hoplites had 200 instead of 160 per unit, and their phalanxes the same, then perhaps more could be said. But as it is, they are definitely going to be outmanned, unit for unit. Position is quite crappy too, none of the cities are mutually supporting. Athenai is likely to be besieged from turn 1, and Sparte can't make it there in time to make any difference. And Rhodos...Rhodos isn't near -anywhere-. You may as well be playing three one-city factions at the same time and it wouldn't make any difference. Greek cavalry is incredibly poor, but that is an inherent weakness that we can't really solve. Best I can see is to make the Hippeis Thessalikoi available to them as a regional if they get Demetrias, to even things out with a decent medium cavalry. But otherwise, historically the Greeks were strong in infantry and weak in cavalry, so that has to be the context we must function in. With stronger infantry, I think we can make a case for KH to stand up to Epeiros, though Makedonia is still a bit dicey.

The KH have infantry to be proud of. In stats they can counter anything the enemy can throw at them. It's only the numbers that let them down. I'll say, though, the most -varied- lineup is Makedonia's and where I'm concerned, that's important to me because I like seeing lots of flashy new cool units filling the recruitment tab in the city menu rather than the same old monotonous units of big shielded fellas. And further, the KH skins are strangely coloured. Hoplitai look drab, all gray and black, and the peltastai look like a fashion disaster with their blue clashing with red.

Okay i'm venturing far afield here and rambling. 'nuff said.

[Anastasios Helios]

You may as well be playing three one-city factions at the same time and it wouldn't make any difference.

That is the beauty of a KH game. It is like you are controlling multiple factions as opposed to just one. You have the opportunity to strike many places, eventually making a nice southern Aegean Empire with a damn excellent economy.

[pezhetairoi]

That's a point. I used to love playing greek cities in vanilla because it was so -divergent-. But that notion doesn't really appeal as strongly on EB somehow. It's like with the removal of Syracuse from the faction, a whole dimension is lost. Ah well. I suppose I'll just go edit the EDB myself and go try out KH with slightly bigger, slightly meaner units, and see.

[Strategos Alexandros]

IMO Epeiros's units are the best looking and they start with a large successor army.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

The best unit roster is the Makedonian one. They have quite everything you need: The best phalanx, the Hypaspistai and Pheraspidai which are arguably the best shield-bearer-type unit, the very best cavalry with Thessalians and Thraikians and most notably the Hetairoi. And they have incredibly good regional units accessable with the Agrianians, the Thraikian Pelstats, the Triballoi, the Thraikian and Scythian Riders, and of course the heavy Galatian infantry and cavalry. Not to mention Syrian archers. There is only one unit type they are inferior compared to their mainland adversaries: That's the often mentioned "imitation legionary", namely Thorakitai which they don't have access to. The role of the Thorakitai, which is quite diverse, has to be filled by different types, namely Hypaspists, Pheraspides, Thureophoroi and Agrianians. Deployed properly and working hand in hand, these can of course outmatch Thorakitai by far. I myself have slaughtered them in droves.

The best strategic starting position has Epeiros, Makedonia has the worst. Evidence is given frequently in the "AI faction progression" thread. Ever seen a Makedonian empire over there? I've seen one (or better a half) once, not more. Epeiros on the other hand is almost always successful, either in Hellas where it is conquering Makedonia proper and Thessalia, then advancing north to the barbarians of Illyria, or it is advancing in Italy crushing the Roman Republic. The Greeks to the south don't have an easy time, but they can overcome the Makedonian troops on the Peloponnesos and do so quite often.

[geala]

Epeiros is superior, with Makedonia as a close second. The reason is that Epeiros has elephants nearby. Makedonia has slightly better top cavalry with armoured horses and elite infantry guard troops, but the difference it not so great and I was not very impressed in my Macedonian campaign from the two Makedonian agema units. Thorakitai can in fact do the same. If you fight enemies with strong infantry, esp. elite phalanges or pesky Spartans or Romans, the elephants make a big difference. Another reason perhaps: Chaonian Agema phalangites are the best in the game in my opinion and also good without phalanx mode. On the other hand the Macedons get the Thracian peltasts, very good skirmishers with a strong punch in close combat thanks to the romphaias. So, it's the elephants.

It's a pity that I have played both factions very intensively. What shall I play in the future, with only losers left...?

[Bootsiuv]

The KH are no push-overs....and they have access to good regional cavalry which make up for that weakness in there armed forces. The Bodyguard hoplites and Spartans are ruthless.

I would definitely take the KH over the other two simply because of their starting position. The pelleponese is easily defendable, as is Attika and the islands.

That being said, the other two probably do have a superior army. The KH is a little outdated for the game period. The successor armies were superior to classical armies....throw in Epeirotes ability to recruit elephants in Ambrakia, and they definitely have a healthy line-up. They also have to fight Rome, and Makedon has to worry about the barbarians to the north, the Epeirotes to the west, and the KH to the south....not exactly an easy starting position.

Just my 2 cents

[blank]

Epirotes have ugly green tunics and KH has too few regionals, so i'd say Macedon

[Tellos Athenaios]

It depends on how you want to play your battles; but I think I must go with Makedonia here.

For a quick no worries back-bone of your army: Phalangitai, ready made.
For an all-round quality mix: well; they might lack Thorakitai type units, but make up for it with regionals.

You will be surprised to see how effectively you can tackle any Mak-style army with your regular Koinon troops: you can anihilate their cavalry and infantry cores with your much more mobile infantry line-up.
Also in the upcoming builds, you will find the Koinon to have access to better elite foot guards than the Makedonians; only matched/outperformed by their Seleukid; Iberian & Irish equivalents.

Yes, the Koinon have the ideal toolkit for mopping up Makedonian battle lines (even better than the Romans or Celts have), only surpassed by the Qartadastim forces.
Thing is; the Koinon will always suffer from missile-based armies - even though not as bad as the early Romans, or Celts will.

[pezhetairoi]

The KH are no push-overs....and they have access to good regional cavalry which make up for that weakness in there armed forces.

Hey bootsiuv, what regional cavalry are we speaking of? I wasn't aware they had any good cavalry at all unless they conquered Scythian parts...

[sgsandor]

I have to agree that KH looks kool but in Greece its gotta be my boys in Green Epiros! This sounds kind of dumb but they remind of Guns n Roses albulm appetite for destruction cause they just wanna take everyone on!

[Anastasios Helios]

If you conquer Thessalia, then you can recruit Hippeis Thessalikoi. They are decent horsemen for holding off the Hetaraioi. I'm interested in learning more about these new powerful bodyguard units. I would love to see the Spartans put more fear in enemy units.

[Spoofa]

Makedonia.


Period.


Although the KH have some awesome phalanx units (underhanded spear)

Alexander rocks.

everybody else loses.

Alexander is like chuck norris

[Bootsiuv]

If I'm not mistaken, Thessalonian Cavalry are regionals, and they're good-quality light cavalry....aside from Hippeis that's about it as far as I know....and if I'm not mistaken, Thessalonian Cavalry are far superior to Hippeis.

I don't worry too much about cavalry though....light hoplites from Athens cover my flanks very well, and they're fast enough to go around the Makedonian flanks themselves.

EDIT: Anastasio, you beat me to it.

@Pezhetaroi

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with your assumptions that the KH has a bad starting position. It's quite well known that Antigonus ALWAYS goes north to defend Pella from Pyrrhos. I've played several KH games and have never had Athens attacked on turn 1.

I always take Korinthos on turn 2 and Chalkis on turn 3....and after that, I'd say the KH has the most defensible position in the game.

[Anastasios Helios]

*high five*

Ζιτο Ελλας!

[Spoofa]

oops..... double post sorry

[Spoofa]

rebellious greeks...... taking the most defend able position in greece...

you're lives would be much nicer under the makedonian rule, with our big long sarissa's...... (figurative language for somthing else that is makedonian and big and long.....? )

[pezhetairoi]

Oh if the KH can recruit Thessalikoi, then that's alright. They are called medium cavalry, but the way they can hold their own against even hetairoi, I'd say they deserve to be called heavy cavalry. On the light side, but still heavy. The Thessalikoi are the heaviest and best-performing medium cav ingame IMHO, and if the KH have them, all that's missing is larger unit sizes, and we're all set. Even as it is, they are now viable.

[Fondor_Yards]

Hmmm in the newest build use beta guys are getting.....Epirotes easy. Best Units+Best Skins=Ownage.

[pezhetairoi]

Hmm. Without telling us too much, are you saying Epeiros has changes, have other factions been nerfed so Epeiros becomes easier? I much prefer Makedonia personally, the Black Death is deadlier than the Grey one! Or the Green one, which to me is just a species of mold.