Why use Seige Towers or Ladders

[Lefaid]

They seem kind of pointless to me, I cheer whenever the Med. AI have to rely on them, all I have to do is send a infantry unit or two onto my walls make sure they are in front of the tower or ladder and then kill the enemy one by one, very rarely have I had this not work. When I attack, if I don't have artiliery I just ram through the gate and charge in or break a whole in the wall and do the same thing. So I was wondering, are the AI just being stupid with them or are these options something you generally shouldn't consider.

[Ramses II CP]

I always bring some ladders to a siege. They build fast, and your units can run carrying them. That means you can often react faster than the AI and get men on the walls unopposed. At the very least you can send ladder teams composed of weak or ranged troops around the walls to spread out the defenders against your main push at the gate.

Also, ladders can be taken down from walls and reused on the next wall set in when you're laying siege to a fortress or citadel. As far as direct assaults, don't make them unless you can get a 2 or 3 to 1 numbers advantage or your whole goal is to distract fire from your ram.

The AI uses ladders quite foolishly, with no thought for comparing the troop strength of the men using them. Why wait out a siege anyway? Sally forth! The siege and sally AI is, IMHO, the worst in the game, there's really no reason to lose a siege unless you're horribly outnumbered.

Ramses II

[lobo76]

hmm... just use spies to open the gate and you won't even need the Ram.

[Delwack]

I found this especially true for the pre-kingdoms M2TW, but if you just build rams, the chance of the ram being burned down is extremely high, even against wooden walls. I usually build a few ladders and/or siege towers simply to draw tower and archer fire away from the ram. It never hurts to spread enemy archers out by luring them into shooting at peasent or militia-manned siege towers that you don't really intend to use (just move them into range of the archers and/or towers, or have them move the equipment into place, but don't acutally climb it). The siege towers also have the nice added effect of providing your units with some measure of cover. You can use ladders to the same effect, but rather than run them in I'd walk them parallel to the ram, and have the troops just sit tight at the bottom soaking arrow fire rather than losing them at the walls, unless of course the archers are inferior to whatever form of militia you happen to be using as your arrow screens.

You can also use dismounted knights or similar heavy infantry to spread enemy troops thin along their walls (perhaps on multiple sides) and draw missle fire away from your ram. The dismountd knights will also easily win against most archers, even if they are ascending on ladders. Their relative immunity to arrows in pre-expansion M2TW makes it viable to run up to the ramparts and mount quickly and with relatively few casualities. After the archer power-up however, I prefer the cover of a siege tower most of the time.

However, IMHO nothing replaces a good treb and/or cannon if you are looking to take a well-defended city.

[crpcarrot]

iver never attacked without ladders or seige towers (unless i have artillery) but wouldnt the AI recognise the fact that there are not ladders and mass its forces at the gates?

if it did that the human player would never be able to attack with just a ram. the gate is a great choke point and with massed infantry and concentrated missle fire can erase whole troops.

the fact that the AI uses ladders and towers is good cos if it didnt any attack at the gates is too easy to defend. at least when the AI brings a few ladders it forces u to spread u men on the walls.

[placebokid]

Siege towers and ladders are incredibly useful as a "hold men in this position" tactic. I'll describe what I mean, and it'll probably quite familiar for a lot of people.

I'm conducting a siege on a town, which has stone walls and an extensive garrison, of roughly a full stack, give or take one or two units. Whilst I COULD barge in through the front gate and mount an all out offensive, the AI is likely to get a large bulk of its troops away to the centre, and unless you're using a highly professional army, and even if you are, you're still going to suffer more casualties than is necessary. What I do instead,is line up all my towers and ladders on the front, in a line from one scalable wall section to the next - and 2 battering rams on a side gate, with a small force of my most elite soldiers (3-4 units) and heavy cavalry (however much is present). What happens is the ladders and siege towers sitting unused represent you pinning the enemy in position. Until you take the square, or come very close to it, those troops defending the walls against the ladders won't make a move. Bringing the battering ram to the side gate, it will likely encounter some resistance, which is what you brought your best units for :) Because this resistance is, from my experience, going to be their closest equivalent to archer and spear militia. From there, push right along into the plaza, moving your heavy cavalry into positions to ambush all those soldiers you left on the wall. Once you TAKE the plaza, they'll come running off the walls in a very amateurish fashion, and what remains (which should be at least 3/4 of every unit) of your elite forces will simply block the entrances. As they try and rush in, your cavalry laid in ambushes will crack them, and if done right, they'll have a simultaneous rout, and you'll win.

What happened? Since you didn't deploy the bulk of your army atall, it's all at full health, and, it can yield results similar to... when I laid siege to an HRE town, which had 200 more men than me (1,000 to my 800), I won using this tactic, incurring just over 100 losses, and of course, eliminating the entire enemy force. And their Kaiser, which was nice.

That's how I use ladders. :D

[Sir Losealot]

Very interesting strategy Placebokid. I had pretty much given up on siege towers and ladders since any progress on the wall was so slow and costly. I preferred to make holes in the wall and gate and run through to make the units on the wall leave. Your strategy seems much better since you have locked the majority of the enemy on the main wall with your towers while you take the square from the side.
I have one question. I usually like to have a force that can assault a city without waiting to build siege equipment. This prevents the Pope from intervening before I can take the town. Is there any way to induce the garrison on the main wall to stay in place without the threatening towers and ladders?
I can't wait to try this plan out.

[Slaists]

Siege towers and ladders are incredibly useful as a "hold men in this position" tactic. I'll describe what I mean, and it'll probably quite familiar for a lot of people.

I'm conducting a siege on a town, which has stone walls and an extensive garrison, of roughly a full stack, give or take one or two units. Whilst I COULD barge in through the front gate and mount an all out offensive, the AI is likely to get a large bulk of its troops away to the centre, and unless you're using a highly professional army, and even if you are, you're still going to suffer more casualties than is necessary. What I do instead,is line up all my towers and ladders on the front, in a line from one scalable wall section to the next - and 2 battering rams on a side gate, with a small force of my most elite soldiers (3-4 units) and heavy cavalry (however much is present). What happens is the ladders and siege towers sitting unused represent you pinning the enemy in position. Until you take the square, or come very close to it, those troops defending the walls against the ladders won't make a move. Bringing the battering ram to the side gate, it will likely encounter some resistance, which is what you brought your best units for :) Because this resistance is, from my experience, going to be their closest equivalent to archer and spear militia. From there, push right along into the plaza, moving your heavy cavalry into positions to ambush all those soldiers you left on the wall. Once you TAKE the plaza, they'll come running off the walls in a very amateurish fashion, and what remains (which should be at least 3/4 of every unit) of your elite forces will simply block the entrances. As they try and rush in, your cavalry laid in ambushes will crack them, and if done right, they'll have a simultaneous rout, and you'll win.

What happened? Since you didn't deploy the bulk of your army atall, it's all at full health, and, it can yield results similar to... when I laid siege to an HRE town, which had 200 more men than me (1,000 to my 800), I won using this tactic, incurring just over 100 losses, and of course, eliminating the entire enemy force. And their Kaiser, which was nice.

That's how I use ladders. :D

yes, that's similar to how I used my ladders and towers: spread them around perimeter and tie enemy units to "watching" them, while an elite force breaks through. a side note for the kingodms: due to boiling oil having made it back into the game, it's frequently much better (in terms of losses) to break down a section of the wall (can be done with one seige engine) than break through the gate.

[placebokid]

I've never tried it, but perhaps leaving one or two of your catapults or whatever you're using at the front, and the simple spectre of your entire army standing with them, might keep the enemies on the wall. I doubt it, however, because I don't think the AI works like that. Infact, from my experience, nothing makes them stay OFF the walls like catapults - your best bet then might be to spread them out, and make holes all over the castle, which should spread the defense forces thin IF they don't retreat back to the square, then use your elite units in a focused forward offensive leaving the other units back. if anything, the sheer focused push is almost guaranteed to break through their thin lines quickly, and force the AI to rush to that position to defend it, leaving themselves neatly flanked when the rest of your forces rush through and encircle them.

As I say though, this is speculatory. I tend to take my excommunications on the chin. :)

As for kingdoms - Very true. Infact, since playing kingdoms, I'd rather forgotten about that, as I've principally been playing the Americas campaign as the Apacheans, and it's not really such an issue then. Especially since the natives closer to spain consistently annihilate them in my games before I even get close.

That said, I'm playing the Britannia campaign as Norway now, so I'll see if I can adapt my strategy. I'm not so fond of those slow siege units, and I've noticed as Norway I rarely have the luxury of making the siege-unit buildings.