Dealing with constant hard drive corruption (experience most likely required).

[CrossLOPER]

I've posted this elsewhere, but I need all the help I can get:

I have an Acer 5100 laptop currently in repair. The thing's been crashing constantly for months, but it became unbearable in July. It started with a series of totally random crashes while working. The mouse would freeze and immediately after the screen would display earth tone vertical lines. Another crash would involve a blue screen that would appear on start up after being put on stand by. There have been instances when the laptop started itself up and crashed this way. Yet another would be a black screen which displayed the name of the hard drive in random characters. At that point, it would be impossible to turn it on and several reboots would be in order. I also noticed an extreme slowdown. A 1 GB RAM computer started acting like it had less than 256. Well, I took the thing to Geek Squad (still under warranty). For three months, I have had the following experience: First time, they replaced the HD and the LCD inverter and made me buy 50 dollars worth of restore disks. About a week later, the thing crashed again and I had to take it back. Geek Squad said they could not find a problem and gave it back to me. They did fix a loose mouse button...

The laptop crashed two days later with the black screen appearing again. I took it back. I get a call a few days later with Geek Squad telling me that they could not find a problem, even though the computer froze during diagnostics. Upon receiving the laptop, the computer crashed immediately in front of a GS employee. He stated that they managed to "get it not to do that for two days". They took it in for diagnostics again and now claim that everything is functioning properly and that video games might be the issue. Somehow, I doubt Counter-Strike is the issue.

Geek Squad crap aside, any idea what might be going on with my laptop?

Suggestions have included running Linux live CD to check for HDD errors and running memtest86+ to check RAM. Anyone have anything?

[Lemur]

Bad RAM and motherboard problems are the most difficult to pin down, and they give you the weirdest errors. Memtest is a good idea. The only way I know to check the mobo is through a process of elimination ...

[Blodrast]

As far as HDD tests go, there's really quite a few levels of depth there - I mean, you can do tests, and you can do really stressing tests, that will take many many hours (or days) (I'm thinking of fsck since you mentioned linux).

It's not clear to me that the disk IS the problem, though, from what you've described. If you can't find any pattern at all for crashing, then in my non-professional opinion it is likely NOT the disk. Disk-related problems (be it the medium itself or the controller) tend to be quite repeatable and/or predictable (to some extent).
You can further isolate this if you for example just boot up a live cd and leave it running, or do stuff that does not write to the disk (or at least minimize disk access); and see if you still get those crashes. It's not a sure diagnostic unless you can manage to not access the hdd AT ALL, but it is a good hint, still.

Completely random stuff seems more likely to have to do with the RAM or the mobo (or even the CPU). Btw, another small experiment you might be able to make is the following: if you have more than 1 stick of ram, say 2 x 512M, take one out. Play with the laptop. If nothing happens, switch the sticks.
And even if you have just one stick, you can still do this by using another ram stick (from a friend, or buy one - doesn't have to be a 1G one, as cheap as you can find).

I guess you're getting my point here - process of elimination, like Lemur says. At least you'll know it's NOT the RAM. Or the hdd.

Can you convince the GS guys to change the mobo ?... (I don't even know if they do that, they might just end up giving you a new machine altogether).

Anyway, you can try these couple of things to narrow it down a bit.

[Blodrast]

One more thing, why did you title your post "constant hard drive corruption" ?
From the content of your post, I didn't see any signs of that anywhere. On the contrary, you said they replaced your hdd and you STILL have problems.
I'd like to understand what makes you think it's hard drive corruption, because, judging from what you've described to us, sure doesn't sound like it to me.

[Lemur]

You also might want to be careful with what's on the HDD when you give it to Geek Squad. They have a bit of history when it comes to borrowing your more, um, colorful entertainment.

[CrossLOPER]

Blodrast, I'll get back to you.

You also might want to be careful with what's on the HDD when you give it to Geek Squad. They have a bit of history when it comes to borrowing your more, um, colorful entertainment.

I have a habit of zero trust when giving away sensitive information to others. I wiped the slack space and over-wrote every loose file before I gave it to them. I'm assuming that this did not contribute to the problem since I do this with all of my computers.

Also, it's nice to know that they're not wasting time.

EDIT: I would like to know ho they set up the desktop to record what is being done. I'm afraid that the only thing they are doing when running "diagnostics" is running scandisk.

[CrossLOPER]

One more thing, why did you title your post "constant hard drive corruption" ?
From the content of your post, I didn't see any signs of that anywhere. On the contrary, you said they replaced your hdd and you STILL have problems.
I'd like to understand what makes you think it's hard drive corruption, because, judging from what you've described to us, sure doesn't sound like it to me.

I posted that because despite restorations and replacements, the HDD seems to become corrupt, in its name anyway.

I would like more info on that live CD method. I've had several people suggest that and I am a novice in trouble shooting computer hardware.

[Blodrast]

For the live cd part, you can go here for example: http://www.slax.org/, although this place http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php
gives out a pretty long list of live cd's you can get.

Then, my idea was that you could run fsck (http://linux.die.net/man/8/fsck) and badblocks (http://linux.die.net/man/8/badblocks) on your disk. Careful with badblocks, you can mess up your disk (I mean, even worse) if you're not doing it properly. I suggest reading the docs on it carefully.

HOWEVER... there may be a problem. If your fs is NTFS, then you may be out of luck. It's been a while since I've been interested in this, so I haven't kept up, and I don't know what the current status with linux support for NTFS is anymore; more specifically, sure, NTFS is supported, both with read and write support, that's all fine, and it's been so for years. That, I know. But for trickier things, like fsck, I don't know if the support is available.

Some google led me to this: http://wiki.linux-ntfs.org/doku.php?id=ntfsprogs
and if you scroll down to the "Users utilities" section, it says:

The following tools are planned, but not yet implemented:

* ntfsck: fsck for NTFS.
* ntfsdefrag: defrag NTFS volumes.

If you have VFAT, then you can use fsck.vfat (http://linux.die.net/man/8/fsck.vfat), and it's all good. But if it's NTFS, you might need to dig deeper and see if anybody wrote an implementation of fsck for NTFS.

All of this of course has the standard disclaimer, if you're unsure of what you're doing then first ask, read the docs carefully, don't sue me/send goons to kill me if you mess your machine up (even worse), etc, etc, etc.

Right. Well, that's my thoughts on this for now. Word of advice, if you do end up using badblocks, it may take a really long time, depending on your disk specs and the kind of errors (if any). Last time I did this, it took several days - and it was a small disk (uhm, like 70GB or so, and it was SCSI, too. True though that the problem was the controller with that one...).

[Sensei Warrior]

I am not, not, not going to claim to be an expert in this arena whatsoever. [Enter Legal Disclaimer Here]. With that said ...

I had a similar experience when I bought my first computer. The computer would act odd (like run slower than the computer would start with the occasional strange error, like TBSOD (Blue Screen of Death), it would decide to reboot itself, the comp would randomly crash for no apparant reason and sometimes rebooting it required a re-install. Oh and it wouldn't play a game at all without locking up about 5 minutes into the game. There was a whole laundry list of other stuff to numerous to mention (like the CPU fan would suddenly stop working).

I took it to the local independant computer store I bought it from a good number of times. Most of the time the said the problem could not be replicated (AKA compu-geek for operator error). They also managed to blame it on Comp games (even though the crashes and lockups happened when I wasnt gaming as well), and in the end the Operating System (which at that time was Windows Me).

I decided screw them, its broke, they cant figure it out, so might as well figure it out myself. The worse thing that could happen is I break my already broken computer. Did all the basic stuff first, scan disk, updated all drivers, scan disk some more (screamed at it when it corrupted a 40pg Term Paper I was working on for school). Bought XP-Pro and installed it. It didnt help diddly. Oh well. I had a number of hard-drives one being a known good hard drive. Installed that, didnt help. Borrowed some known good sticks of RAM from a friend. More various iterations of didnt help. So I ended up doing the unthinkable.

I bought a new motherboard (an ASUS in case you were wondering). I checked Microsofts Approved Hardware List (I didnt know if it helped), bought the new MB and 1/2 gig of RAM (Corsair in case you were wondering also approved by Microsoft and recommended by ASUS), and installed them both. The damn computer has worked without a hitch ever since. Just out of curiosity I installed Me later and found out that Me was alot more stable then people gave it credit for, at least on my rig.

Now was the MB the problem? Like I said, I'm no expert but when I replaced it the problems went away.

Am I saying you should get your MB replaced? Not necessarily. Lemur and Blodrast have it on the head. Carefully eliminate the variables, and once you narrowed down the field then your on your way to getting it fixed. In my experience bad MBs will cause errors that suggest everything else, so they are the hardest to pin down.

LOL all that to say listen to Blodrast and Lemur, they sound like they know what they're doing.

[CrossLOPER]

Well, the laptop can't get much worse. Since it's in such awful shape and I've got nothing to lose, I'll try the stuff suggested.

That being said, I'm still open to more suggestions in the mean time as well as reliable links to diagnostic tools.

[Whacker]

Crossloper, I've had a few situations similiar to what you're describing, in each case it turned out to be the mobo going bad (IDE controller in all 3 cases). Certainly try the other suggestions that folks have put forward in here first, but my $5 is that your mobo is going bad. Best of luck.

[CrossLOPER]

Whacker, this is what I have suspected for over a month, but GS can find nothing. Does anyone know how I can check on the mother board on a laptop?

[Whacker]

Erm.. Geek Squad is ... kinda useless, IMO. /shrug

No, noone will be able to test the mobo except the manufacturer, who has special equipment for that kind of thing. Your best bet at this point is to probably raise a ruckus, in a polite manner. Clearly it's failing, they've acknowledged the problem, and haven't fixed it. Demand it be fixed. It's under warranty, so they have to do it. If they try to argue with you, pull out your warranty and demand it be fixed. And I highly doubt their claim of "stable for two days", which to them probably meant "leave it alone and don't touch it for two days".

[CrossLOPER]

Erm.. Geek Squad is ... kinda useless, IMO. /shrug

......

Let me fill you in: I have growing contempt for them and I came to the conclusion a long time ago that most service centers (stores, repairs, whatever) are not looking out for your interests. I do not trust them and I plan to figure out what they are hiding.

UPDATE: I have the computer. For two days, it has been remarkably stable. No crashes, but I have noted the following: Within the first fifteen to twenty minutes of usage, the CPU usage averages about 25% when idle. After that, it drops to a normal 4%. This corresponds to a drop of memory usage by the process "Acer.empowering" (this is the company power management program attached to the OS). It drops from about 20000 k to 8000 k at about the same time the CPU usage % drops. I found that the most curious things happen during this time. Upon starting the laptop, I waited 10 minutes and found that Firfox wont open citing something like the following: "could not find set at &*%". Between the characters was the following, I kid you not:



Firefox started fine about a minute later. I cannot link instability with shutting down empowering technology, but I suspect there is a link.

File fragmentation appears to be set at 15%. That is, I can't get it any lower.

One more note: The laptop appears to be far more slower and unstable when disconnected from a power source, no matter the power settings.

[Caius]

I have an Acer too, and some programs are virus, or that says AVG.

[CrossLOPER]

I have an Acer too, and some programs are virus, or that says AVG.

The computer does not stay not crashed long enough and has such a slow download rate that it probably would not make it. I also have a good amount security ans sweeping, so it should not be a problem.

UPDATE: Well, after working with an ominous slowness yesterday, the laptop crashed about eleven times this morning as I tried to start it up. Now that I got it to work, I am starting to believe that there is a possibility that this thing does not crash at GS. How they missed the corrupt HDD name in BIOS, however, is beyond me. What pisses me off is how normally it works after its crashing fit.

[Lemur]

Are you in a position to agitate for a replacement laptop? 'Cause it sure as heck sounds like the motherboard, and the only way you're gonna get a new laptop mobo is to exchange the entire machine ...

[CrossLOPER]

Are you in a position to agitate for a replacement laptop? 'Cause it sure as heck sounds like the motherboard, and the only way you're gonna get a new laptop mobo is to exchange the entire machine ...

I thought as much. However, I have absolutely no clue how to urge GS or push them in the right direction to realize this. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

An exchange requires 4 REQUIRED repairs. 2 have been done, so I'm not too far. However, the laptop is not cooperating. I don't know what causes the crashing fits, otherwise I could show GS the formula and they could deal with it. At least they would stop telling me that they can't find a problem.

[Lemur]

Try telling them you're sure it's the motherboard. Couldn't hurt, right?

-edit-

I know of two things that can create impossible-to-recreate crashes: bad RAM and a bad mobo. So download Memtest and run it, and eliminate the RAM. That will leave the motherboard.

If they give you hell about not being able to re-create the crash, tell them that motherboards and RAM create random crashes. That's just the nature of the beast. If they want to see it for themselves, they're going to have to use the laptop for an extended period.

[Whacker]

Lemur's suggestions aren't bad, BUT I would offer something else as an alternative. You've got a few options.

- Do the memtest routine. IF you can find another known good stick of ram, try that first off and see if it works. If it doesn't, then you know it's not the RAM. Your problem still sounds like a bad mobo.

- Play hardball with the repair crew. My suggestion at this point, don't get mired down in arguing details. Don't listen to lame excuses. Demand satisfaction. "Well we couldn't get it to do such and such, we think so and so, we can't reproduce etc, so it's fixed." Don't care, doesn't matter. Bottom line is that your laptop needs to be fixed. Be reasonable but absolutely firm, and don't let them get you off course on excuses, etc. If it crashes on you on a regular basis during normal use, and the GS guys claim otherwise, they are bullshitting you and/or lying. It might help if you had some tool or means for documenting crashes, if I have some time I'll look into it for you. Otherwise, someone on the forums may know of something. You want it to document each lockup or crash (if possible), or detect when the system has crashed on the next boot up. I thought Sysinternals made something like this that logs BSODs, but I might be wrong. Someone else jump in here. This is just doing them somewhat of a favor anyway, it's their job to fix it (and it's also a prelude to what I suggest at the very bottom below). As for the policy on 4 repairs before a replace, remember a policy is just a policy. It's not law, not written in stone. Business is business and when need dictates, policy can be ignored or overruled. Don't forget that and don't let them feed you some lines about "corporate requires this or that", management always, always has the ability to make cost related decisions in a business, that's WHY they are managers. Sometimes if you prove to be a persistent customer and a thorn in their side who's not going to roll over and accept the BS, businesses will often bypass policy requirements like what you mentioned to resolve the issue. It'd probably be more costly for them anyway to continue down that road, than to just shortcut and resolve the matter up front.

- If all else fails, make a (polite) scene. Demand that management address the problem. Stick to your guns, don't piddle and argue, demand resolution, nothing more and nothing less. If you can't get that, take it up the food chain, write a (polite and well worded) nastygram to the regional director, the vp, the ceo, whomever. If you still don't get anything and it's under warranty, you might seriously want to consider small claims court. If you can demonstrate to the court that your laptop is "non-functional", aka be able to show hard documentation or evidence of repeated crashing during normal use, and that you tried to resolve this with the company, you've got a full house. This is costly and extreme, and it does carry some risk, but you have a right to what you paid for.

[CrossLOPER]

Well, the laptop is out of my hands again. I got them to document one form of a frequent error in the form of a picture (taken at the suggestion of a GS member) of a BIOS boot order tab displaying the random HDD name. I spent about half an hour in the store trying to replicate one of two frequent crashes, but this lead to nothing. In any case, according to GS (who were a lot more helpful this time, I sense a pattern) the BIOS picture should be enough to prove that the pre-boot failure shows that at least one main problem is definitely hardware related, and more importantly that a problem exists!

Deeper delving into the "My Computer" shows that the laptop documented a series of failure clusters that apparently occurred at the time of crashes. Among the more common failures includes the Windows clock being unable to set itself when attempting to connect to the internet...

One of the GS members sent off the picture and a note stating that the problems can only be replicated through usage.

If I get it back again without a satisfactory report (in this case a new frikin laptop, or a voucher...), I'm going raise hell, to take it home, document every failure, come back, raise even more hell, and then go on to more serious measures if things don't work out.

I really want to stop spending time on this!!!

[CrossLOPER]

Alright, last time I posted, I abandoned almost all hope of resolving this peacefully. About a week ago, a call to Geek Squad resulted in what appeared to be a very short and unproductive conversation with a seemingly apathetic GS employee. However, today was different.

Yesterday, my parents got a cryptic call from Best Buy where the caller stated that a system restore was in order. Today, I fully expected a long (futile) conversation with the manager about policies and ethics. Instead, I got this:
An HP pavilion dv6500. To be honest, this is not the best laptop in the world, but it was the best I could get for the swap policy. Oh well. I'm happy.

One more thing: How the heck do you REMOVE the remote from the express card slot? I mean other than picking it out with a thin sharp object. I truly cannot find the eject button.

[Lemur]

Congrats on getting a replacement, Crossloper! Well played, sir.