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Thread: Sápmi province south of Finland?

  1. #1

    Default Sápmi province south of Finland?

    I've noticed that the province south of Finland (in EB) is named "Sápmi". How comes that? The sami people lived (and still lives) in northern Sweden, Norway, Finland and western Sibiria. Did the sami really have settlements south of Finland? Or was the province just named "Sápmi" by the romans, who may have thought that everyone in the northern Europe were sami?

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1pmi_%28area%29


    Edit: Added a source.
    Last edited by Brynjolfr; 07-29-2007 at 17:31.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    I'm afraid I can't answer your question, but I'm 99% sure that "Sápmi" isn't the Romans' name for the town. First off, it doesn't look like a Latin word (they didn't have accents and I can't think of any words that end in "i" in the nominative) and secondly, the EB team always uses the locals' names for their towns, not the more famous names (e.g. the Romans' name for the town) where they can help it.

  3. #3
    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    I've been wondering about the Sápmi province too. Sápmi is a Northern Saami word, and so is the one used in the settlement name. The weird thing about this is that while the Saami did inhabit parts of Southern Finland and Karelia in EB's timeframe, they were hardly the most significant of the peoples there. The Balto-Finnic tribes of present-day Estonia and Latvia were far more powerful, and the somewhat obscure Finnic peoples farther east even more so. Also, Sápmi is a modern Saami word, it wasn't used back in 272 BCE.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahju
    I've been wondering about the Sápmi province too. Sápmi is a Northern Saami word, and so is the one used in the settlement name. The weird thing about this is that while the Saami did inhabit parts of Southern Finland and Karelia in EB's timeframe, they were hardly the most significant of the peoples there. The Balto-Finnic tribes of present-day Estonia and Latvia were far more powerful, and the somewhat obscure Finnic peoples farther east even more so. Also, Sápmi is a modern Saami word, it wasn't used back in 272 BCE.

    "Sápmi" is indeed a modern word. But what people could have used it during EB timeframe? A finno-ugric tribe?

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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    The word itself is indeed taken from a proto-saami language (it has the same form in its ancient version, apparently) however according to a linguistic theory presented here: http://www.sgr.fi/ct/ct51.html - in the period it may have been used in various forms by all peoples living in and around the area, as it was borrowed and re-borrowed by proto-saami, proto-finns, proto-baltic and even germanic people, as saami, haami, soomi, sabmi, sapmi etc.
    Not having a finnish history expert on the team at the time of making the map, we kinda had to go with what we had. The province boundaries represent the general area of finnic-saamic languages and archeological cultures as far as I was aware of them, but any additional data is welcome.
    Last edited by eadingas; 07-30-2007 at 08:36.
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    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    I see. I'm hardly an expert, but I do have certain familiarity with the subject and I'd be more than happy to help out the EB team, so here's what I know.

    I think the best name for the province would be Sōme. That's the reconstructed Proto-Finnic root for a number of modern Finnic ethnonyms, including Suomi (Finland). Saami words Sápmi, Sabme etc are related to it, however, by 272 BCE Saami languages had already differentiated from Balto-Finnic languages and at this point, the Saami would have called themselves Sāmē. Thus, Sōme is a Balto-Finnic name. The name of the people of Sōme would be Sōmalaiset, respectively.

    The name of the settlement - Asodát - is obviously a Saami word, but I don't speak any of the Saami languages, so I don't know what it means. I think the most sensible thing would be to give the settlement a Balto-Finnic name, such as Sōmeŋkylä (village of Sōme) or Sōmenlitna (town/fort of Sōme). Also, it would make sense to place the settlement on the northern coast of Estonia, for there was the centre of Balto-Finnic culture in EB's timeframe.

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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    I see. It seems my knowledge of the area was based on data a few centuries too early (late bronze age) - I was not aware things have changed that much by 3rd c. BC.

    (Asodat, btw, is a proto-sami word for 'Home' - the only proto-sami word I could find that kinda fitted there)

    AFAIK, the name changes are on hold right now, but I'll let the guys know to change these things as soon as they're able.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    I don't know anything about the area or language, but I can say that indeed the map for EB1 has been frozen in these respects:
    -changing names of provinces/cities
    -changing locations of cities

    Scripts and such really needed us to stop fidgeting with things so we locked those down.
    If eadingas submits that as a better name change for the province, and if the province remained pretty much 'as-is' for EB2 on M2TW, then the name would get changed for that though. Can you post on it on the internal board, e? Some guys don't keep up with all the threads out here.

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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Already did
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Thanks! I hadn't looked at the EB2 subforum this morning yet.

    I expect we'll see that change in EB2 Kahju. We're not nearly as stubborn as some folks make us out to be.
    Last edited by Teleklos Archelaou; 07-30-2007 at 16:19.

  11. #11
    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    I expect we'll see that change in EB2 Kahju.


    Spring/summer 2012? Oh well. Anyway, I'm glad to know they will be implemented.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    We simply cannot continue to make piecemeal changes in province or city names, or in their locations. It's hard enough to keep the main files up to date, but the script files are a real pain - in addition to the spreadsheets and such that deal with recruitment and the recruitment map program and such. We are in clear agreement that those aspects of EB1's map are frozen at this point. But we are more than happy to take any new information (since about a month ago) into account for the map for M2TW's version of EB.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Ive always been curiouse about the finnish language. They are similar to norwegians and swedes and Danes in appearance, but their language belongs in a totaly diffrent language group. Isnt the language related to Turkic languages? were the peolple who brought the finnic language to the area asiatic in appearance? Im curiouse to know.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Who actually knows . Migrations back then are so ****ed up it isn't even funny . I'm sure you've heard the whole thing about old Babylonian not being related to any language on Earth .


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  15. #15
    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Most experts agree that Finnish isn't related to Turkic languages. The Uralo-Altaic theory has been popular in some circles, but it is very much a minority view - even the relatedness between the supposed Altaic languages remains unproven.

    In addition to its best known linguistic relatives, Estonian and Hungarian, Finnish is related to a number of languages that are spoken mostly in Russia, such as Mari, Komi and Selkup. Most of these languages will soon be extinct due to Russian persecution.

    The first Uralic-speaking people in Finland may or may not have been "Asiatic" looking. It is important to remember that ethnicity and language aren't necessarily connected, and present-day Finns (and other Balto-Finnic speakers, for that matter) are indeed very "Nordic" in looks. Uralic languages have been spoken on the shores of the Baltic for at least some 4000 years, and the population base has remained pretty much unchanged. Genetically, Finns are no more "Asiatic" than other European peoples, and are only barely related to the speakers of Uralic languages in Central Russia - just as German and Armenian peoples are quite different in terms of ethnicity, despite both speaking an Indo-European language. Interestingly, Finns are genetically quite close to the Flemish people of Belgium.

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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Well, from what I saw on my few trips to Finland, I'm quite sure I could tell a Finn apart from a Swede most of the times (unless they lived in the west ;)
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    Member Member Lovejoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    These sort of things i actually really intresting. Did you know that the Finnish and Japanese languages is (somewhat)related? There is actually some noticeable similarities. If I remember correctly both languages dont have any "plural forms"(but dont take my word for it) for example.
    Last edited by Lovejoy; 07-30-2007 at 22:48.

  18. #18
    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovejoy
    Did you know that the Finnish and Japanese languages is (somewhat)related?

    I didn't. Even though there are many outlandish "theories" about relatedness with Dravidan, Indo-European and Sumerian languages, I've never seen anyone propose a Japonic connection.


    There is actually some noticeable similarities.

    Phonologically, yes. Otherwise, no.


    If I remember correctly both languages dont have any "plural forms" for example.

    Finnish does have plurals.


    (but dont take my word for it)

    I won't.

  19. #19
    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Perhaps you mean relation Finnish - Ainu? I've seen it mentioned quite a few times, though mostly in context of rebuking such theories ;)
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  20. #20
    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Well, people like to draw sketchy parallels between "exotic" languages and peoples, certain theory about the origin of Saami being a prime example. According to this theory, Saami people would be Basques who migrated to the shores of Lake Onega thousands of years ago. The professor (!) who proposed this theory had practically nothing to back it up, but he seemed to be very serious about it.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Finns related to Flemings? I think Finns look way more Scandinavian than Flemish. Flemings are largely Germanic of origin, with perhaps some Celtic remnants. Where'd you got that from?

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    Member Member Lovejoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Kahju: As I said, I wasnt sure about the plural-thingy. I know japanese dont have any "plural-forms" so I quessed that might be it. It was something, but I cant remember what.

    I'm only telling you guys what I was teached in school, we actually had someone visiting our school for talking about this subject.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    I'm also thinking that whoever said what that they meant Ainu of Japan (white people of Hokaido- pretty interesting for Japan) who are known to be associated with Siberia and the steppe, in relation to the Finns, rather than Japanese which cannot be conclusively proven to be related to Altaic, nonetheless Uralic language.

    I am wondering why the Æsti are totally disregarded in relationship to the location discussed on this thread? Tacitus' accounts seem to support that the Finns and Sami had not migrated yet to their present day locations near the Baltics, as well as the fact that the Aesti culture proves itself unique and cohesive enough to be noted very early and persists well past the Middle Ages, to present "Est"-onia whose population today may be of Uralic language family, but their identity/name is from the Aesti, most likely Proto-Baltic... please, nobody mention the British that was just an example of tactless Tacitus.. also, somehow Aesti is glossed as "East" although that has no support either.
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 07-30-2007 at 23:57.
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    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Swordmaster: I got it from a research by Cavalli-Sforza or from a research based on his work, can't remember which, and although Cavalli-Sforza has his flaws, I'd say he is pretty reliable.

    Germanic and Celtic are linguistic, not ethnical terms. Finns are overall quite close to modern-day Germanic-speaking Europeans, although we can presume that other Balto-Finnic peoples such as Karelians, Livonians and Estonians would be the closest. Swedes aren't nearly as close to Finns as one might think, our jolly neighbours are in fact closer to the English than they are to us.

    Lovejoy: I presume that the perceived similarities in question are actually features that are present in Indo-European languages, but absent in many others. Indo-European speakers - linguists, even - have this wonderful habit of presuming that the lack of grammatical gender or another such feature is somehow exceptional, even though many of the features of Indo-European languages are in fact quite rare in other languages - the lack of grammatical gender, for example, is more of a rule than it is an exception in world's languages.

    Blitzkrieg: Aesti people were most likely Proto-Baltic, and their name was only applied to the Estonians after the viking age. I don't think Estonians actually called themselves by the name "eestlased" until the 19th century or so.

    I'd be interested to know how Tacitus' mention of the Aesti contradicts the commonly accepted theory of the origin of Balto-Finnic peoples. I've never heard of that. Tacitus does mention a people he calls "Fenni", but his account on them seems entirely fictional - as you probably know, he isn't exactly the most reliable source.
    Last edited by Kahju; 07-31-2007 at 00:18.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Yes Armenian and German are obviously diffrent ethnicities, but when we look at pre christian pagan cultures of Indo-european speaking people there are many many culutral similarities.

    p.s There is no grammatical gender in Armenian either. (there is no He She)

  26. #26

    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    ... your ****ing lucky . Unless there is something else to brain **** you instead?


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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    As for Flemish connection - my best guess would be them Frisians getting around a lot.Their migrations are largely overlooked because for some reason they're not mentioned much in the sources, but they are known to be, for example, one of the four main germanic groups to have come to Britain, with Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Perhaps they have also influenced Flemish and Finnish backgrounds in the same way... although that is just a guess, and the connection may be much older.
    From what I understand, genetically Finns are a very small and tight group, with not much diversity (that's what some Finns themselves told me) so that Flemish trait could come from pretty much anything and stay for a long time...
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    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovejoy
    Did you know that the Finnish and Japanese languages is (somewhat)related? There is actually some noticeable similarities.
    In Japanese my first name means 'autumn', and is a girl's name.

    All I know is that bronze age Finns were culturally closer to Germanic than anything else. I discussed this once with a seasoned archeologist at the Finnish National Museum, who confirmed to me the similiarity of the burial sites in Finland and in "real Germania".

  29. #29
    Creatively Maladjusted Member Kahju's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaatu
    In Japanese my first name means 'autumn', and is a girl's name.

    That's not so bad. I knew a woman whose name meant "weird" in Japanese. The funny thing is that she learnt it the hard way.

  30. #30
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sápmi province south of Finland?

    "Odd" is a fairly common name in Norway. Its popularity is dwindling in these international times... The common Indian name of Manchit would mean human excrement in Norwegian, unless I've misunderstood its pronouncement.

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