Good News, the Moslims saved England!

[InsaneApache]

Oh come on! Everybody knows it was Tibetan Monks that did for looney Joan.

Do try and keep up Louis.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Somebody sign this Trevor fellow up with an account.

I want to see him post this one in the monastery and defend it against Kraxis and the other lads there.....

[Watchman]

For what it's worth (regarding the OP), AFAIK pretty much everyone with an axe to grind with the Habsburgs had an alliance with the Ottomans at some point. Having them there at the flank of Austria-Hungary was just too useful. And the Ottomans could conversely use the portage in western Med.

Not to be outdone, the Habsburgs then went and tended to ally with the Persians to keep the Ottmans' flank busy...

And AFAIK the English didn't beat the Armada because they had genius admirals or something (one claim I've seen was that they had superior bronze cannon...). It was just equipement. The English ships were on the average faster and more maneuverable, and most importantly their guns were set in the then novel naval carriage (you know, the box-like thing with four small wheels). The Spanish guns were still stuck in the old land-artillery carriages (long trail, two wheels etc.), which were quite ill suited for shipboard use and made the guns bloody slow to reload to the considerable delight of their more firepower-oriented opponents (the Spanish preferred boarding tactics).

[/history lesson]

And yeah, pointless revisionism sucks.

[InsaneApache]

And AFAIK the English didn't beat the Armada because they had genius admirals or something (one claim I've seen was that they had superior bronze cannon...). It was just equipement. The English ships were on the average faster and more maneuverable, and most importantly their guns were set in the then novel naval carriage (you know, the box-like thing with four small wheels). The Spanish guns were still stuck in the old land-artillery carriages (long trail, two wheels etc.), which were quite ill suited for shipboard use and made the guns bloody slow to reload to the considerable delight of their more firepower-oriented opponents (the Spanish preferred boarding tactics).

[/history lesson]

And yeah, pointless revisionism sucks.

Indeed. We (English) won the battle more through luck than judgement. The fireships at Gravesland (sp) was about the only real contribution in the battle. Let's face it Drake was off plundering again, once a pirate......

[Watchman]

Well, it was a growth industry in southern England at the time. To the man's credit in the context he did mostly plague the Spanish (if only for the same reason as everyone else - they had the most to steal on the waves), and I understand him or another big-name privateer actually managed to stall the whole Armada thing a bit with a daring raid into some port where the ships were being massed.

[Geoffrey S]

For what it's worth (regarding the OP), AFAIK pretty much everyone with an axe to grind with the Habsburgs had an alliance with the Ottomans at some point. Having them there at the flank of Austria-Hungary was just too useful. And the Ottomans could conversely use the portage in western Med.

Which, considering the Habsburgs massive amounts of territory and thus borders, was pretty much everyone really.

[Watchman]

Yup. The French were the big one though, being sandwiched between Spain, the Holy Roman Empire and Spanish territories in both Northern Italy and the Netherlands. Dunno about the Polish; they were probably mostly too busy fending off the Russians and other annoyances.

[Papewaio]

So, what happened to the English sailors after they saved Elizabeth I and England from the Armada? or

[Watchman]

Wouldn't they just have gone about their business as before ?

[econ21]

So, what happened to the English sailors after they saved Elizabeth I and England from the Armada? or

I heard they were confined to their ships in port over a pay dispute or some such. I think quite a few died of malnutrition or disease. Pretty shabby treatment of the armed forces - InsaneApache will no doubt blame the Labour government of the time.

[AntiochusIII]

What an idiot.

History should not be the tool of propaganda and social engineering. Sadly it has been so since the beginning of, well, history.

Curse you Herodotus.

May be the Turks had a role or may be they don't: If the mighty Ottoman Empire truly did gear up for an apparent war with Spain I can see Philip delaying the Armada; even if the Atlantic fleet and the Mediterranean galley fleet are separate, fighting the Ottomans would require much of Spain's manpower anyway: manpower needed to wrestle England from Elizabeth once the Spanish landed. But as far as I know, which is little, there's no such serious attempts.

Any major event in history is necessarily complex, yet by human limitations most would only come to recognize the most significant factors in play, and there's really nothing wrong with that.

It however has nothing to do with attempting to integrate immigrants into 21th century Great Britain. I would be sincerely offended, and I'm not that easily offended, if suddenly the citizens of the U.S.A. decide that I must be placated in such a blatant manner lest I start planting bombs in white people's homes.

Nothing says "second-class" like an elaborate display of bread and circus.

[JR-]

i'm fairly sure the turks had their own reasons for fighting lepanto.

[Watchman]

The whole point of the Armada was to cover the shipping of the veteran Army of Netherlands across the Channel; as AFAIK the manpower requirements of the Atlantic and Mediterranean navies were pretty much entirely different (except that the soldiers used in the boarding actions, being simply infantry aboard ships, was interchangeable), I can't really see the Lepanto campaign and the other galley scuffles having all that much an effect on the matter.
Doubly so as Spanish war galleys were rowed by convicts and slaves.

I heard they were confined to their ships in port over a pay dispute or some such. I think quite a few died of malnutrition or disease. Pretty shabby treatment of the armed forces - InsaneApache will no doubt blame the Labour government of the time.

Huh, sounds like the fine traditions of the Royal Navy - "scurvy, sodomy and the lash" as Churchill put it - were already well established...

[InsaneApache]

I heard they were confined to their ships in port over a pay dispute or some such. I think quite a few died of malnutrition or disease. Pretty shabby treatment of the armed forces - InsaneApache will no doubt blame the Labour government of the time.

I'd love to, unfortunately the Scottish Cabal wouldn't have got a look in under Elizabeth I.

[macsen rufus]

Revisionist history? Utter small-round-things, as referred to by the Sex Pistols' first album....

Far from fostering a spirit of inclusiveness, shouldn't the whole Armada experience remind us instead what a bunch of devious double-dealing traitorous haggis-munchers the Scots are, and wonder how we ever allowed ourselves to get Unified with them? And why didn't we stamp out the treasonous Catholics when we had the chance? Obviously the Protestant Wind was a clear sign that we should tolerate no other faiths on our hallowed isle! Hmm...? [/ totally inappropriate sarcasm]

Gah - politics should listen to history, not rewrite what it doesn't like

[Brenus]

“Joan of Arc wasn't killed by the English, that is just history filtered through a sub-conscious, nationalistic bias”
Thanks for the link.
But it is all rubbish. Joan of Arc was the natural daughter of the Duke of Lorraine and Isabelle Romée de Vouthon. O she was raised in a farm like always in this case, but got nice education for young female in the middle-ages, strategy, tactic, guerrilla warfare, foreign languages, modern literature (Roman de Renart, Eloise and Abelard, etc), chivalry code for demoiselle. She married Gilles Laval, Baron de Rais, Marechal de France but had few affairs with Dunnois d’Alencon and La Hire. So, she divorced him with the consequences we know for him…
Recognised when leaving an estaminet by some gazetiers, she tried to escape by coach but was followed by them. Her coach slide on the mud and hit a tree.
The Engravers draw some pictures but could have they done? The surgeon was slaughtering a pig (butchers were surgeons for the reason that they had at least a vague idea how internal organs work. Pigs and Humans have similarities in skeleton). She was then dispatched to the emergency unit of the English Stabilisation Forces in France (ESFF) and was treated by the Pr. Cochon, renowned ecclesiastic. He didn’t succeed to save Joan, but, in acknowledgement France give a hospital his name. Unfortunately, the scribe did make a spelling mistake and it became the Hospital Cochin in Paris…

[InsaneApache]

You missed out the Tibetan Monks.

[Watchman]

The flying Tibetan Monks. Farting fire. Let's be historically accurate here.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The surgeon was slaughtering a pig (butchers were surgeons for the reason that they had at least a vague idea how internal organs work. Pigs and Humans have similarities in skeleton). She was then dispatched to the emergency unit of the English Stabilisation Forces in France (ESFF) and was treated by the Pr. Cochon, renowned ecclesiastic. He didn’t succeed to save Joan, but, in acknowledgement France give a hospital his name. Unfortunately, the scribe did make a spelling mistake and it became the Hospital Cochin in Paris…

Nonono! the hôpital Cochin DID start out as l'hôpital Cochon. That's because it was build on the site of an ancient pig butchery.
Now all those Muslim Ottomans had to refuse being treated there, and had to return home. It was part of the plan to get rid of the Ottoman expeditionary force, the one that sailed from Normandy to stop the Armada.

[ajaxfetish]

Were you there?

If you are planning on going into history, I would forever strike this rhetorical question from your mind. It contributes nothing to discussion, stalls productive debate, and shows that you have no relevant counterargument to offer.

Ajax

[CountArach]

Yeah I know, its just always funny to add it into an Internet discussion and to see what comes from it.

[Slyspy]

Mostly episodes like the Armada show how much of history is down to sheer luck. Oh look, a storm....and the nation is saved. Or at least the monarchy and the Church is. At least it meant the proles didn't have to learn Spanish to talk to their landlord.

[Geoffrey S]

Mostly episodes like the Armada show how much of history is down to sheer luck. Oh look, a storm....and the nation is saved. Or at least the monarchy and the Church is. At least it meant the proles didn't have to learn Spanish to talk to their landlord.

Historical events may be down to luck or skill, frequently in fact, but history as such? Whether the Armada really was such a threat, if a Spanish victory would have had significant consequences, whether England was saved from certain destruction... all very open matters.

[Watchman]

At least it meant the proles didn't have to learn Spanish to talk to their landlord.

Actually, I don't think the peasants and the landlords in general talked too much to each other anywhere. The lords tended to have assorted "middle management" types handle such trivialities, and the commoners usually picked a sort of representative among themselves to handle that part (ie. someone reasonably fluent in the language and with the acument and legal knowledge to make decent arguments).

[PanzerJaeger]

A once proud nation sacrificing its history and heritage in a futile attempt to appease the muslims... disgusting.

At least this man is rather isolated in his opinions... at least from the sound of those on this board.

[Slyspy]

A once proud nation sacrificing its history and heritage in a futile attempt to appease the muslims... disgusting.

At least this man is rather isolated in his opinions... at least from the sound of those on this board.

Your two statements contradict each other.

@ Watchman: The estate managers, whatever their title, would not be nobility. In many cases they would likely have been the same guys are before the invasion. So yes, the proles would have to learn Spanish. Or maybe revert back to Latin in the case of those working for the Church.

@ Geoffrey: History is much more vague than most people think and nothing is written in stone. Historians fill in the gaps as best they can and, yes, they make guesses at what might have been. Some of these guesses are educated, others are not.

[PanzerJaeger]

The former was aimed towards the idea, the latter toward the reality.

[Fragony]

At least this man is rather isolated in his opinions... at least from the sound of those on this board.

Which pleases me. It is good to see that the cult is losing ground, naming and shaming used to be enough, people now say yeah right and don't care to be labeled by the elite. Elite gets hysteric and start lying, even the cultural genetic make-up has to go in favour of their ideals and people are starting to notice.

good, one step closer to equal treatment for all.

[naut]

That article is utter diatribe. Rubbish and crap to blow away all other rubbish and crap.

And I was under the impression that it was the Irish/Scottish coast that inflicted most of the damage?

[Abokasee]

It's true. The English didn't beat the Spanish Armada, it was the Muslims that did it! 'Clever' Trevor Philips says so, so it must be true. What a pillock.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7012698.stm

Anything to promote the [failed] multicultural agenda. It's only been within my lifetime that significant numbers of non-white immigrants have come to the UK. Still never let the truth get in the way of political correctness eh?

Battle of Lepanto.

I dont think the Turks would have ANY intrust in defending us, nor would they reach in time.