Historical documents

[Odin]

This story caught my eye

Copy of Magna Carta to be sold

Text:

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Tue Sep 25, 8:31 PM ET

LONDON - A 13th-century copy of the Magna Carta, a milestone of English freedom, will be offered for sale in New York in December, Sotheby's auction house said Tuesday.



The vellum manuscript owned by the Perot Foundation is estimated to sell for $20 million to $30 million, Sotheby's said.

The document was on display at the National Archives in Washington for more than 20 years until last Thursday.

King John was forced by barons to agree to the charter in 1215. It guaranteed that freemen would not be imprisoned or deprived of property without due process, including a right to a speedy trial before a jury.

Versions of the Magna Carta were issued in 1216, 1217, 1225 and 1264 by John's son, King Henry III.

The copy offered by Sotheby's for sale on Dec. 10 is dated 1297, the year it was incorporated into the statute rolls of King Edward I.

Discovered among the Brudenell family records in England in 1974, the copy is one of only four remaining of the 1297 charter.

H. Ross Perot bought the copy in 1984 and loaned it to the National Archives. It was first exhibited in 1985.

I am all for free market trade and the concepts of supply demand and the freedom to buy what you want. However when it comes to antiquities and historical documents should these be open for sale?

It seems to me that this would be better served in a museum in England as it is historically signifigant to that country. I am oppossed to selling culturally signifigant artifacts as it takes away from thier cultural signifigance.

Any thoughts?

[English assassin]

Any thoughts?

The last thing our government wants is any document that might remind us we used to be free. 'No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions ... except by the lawful judgement of his peers" Ah, those were the days.

Seriously, we do have provisions over here to hold up sale of any culturally significant object and give museums etc first refusal. But once its out of the country and in other hands its fair game I guess.

Anyway, there are other copies. Salisbury cathedral has one on display, the British library has two, so its OK to share the love a bit.

[Odin]

The last thing our government wants is any document that might remind us we used to be free. 'No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions ... except by the lawful judgement of his peers" Ah, those were the days.

Seriously, we do have provisions over here to hold up sale of any culturally significant object and give museums etc first refusal. But once its out of the country and in other hands its fair game I guess.

Anyway, there are other copies. Salisbury cathedral has one on display, the British library has two, so its OK to share the love a bit.

For me perhaps I am being to nationalist in my thinking but this is a document of historical importance to England. In my mind its a cultural item that should be embraced by the population as historically signifigant and cherished.

The fact that it is up for private sale bothers me, I dont dispute the validity of the process. I dont know the coffee this morning was pretty good, maybe i gotten bitten by the idealist I have worked years to suppress.

[English assassin]

I suppose I could come over all philosophical and say that rights and freedoms are intangible things, that we have to live, and the vellum they are written on isn't worth much.

But yeah, I take your point. If we didn't have a few of the originals still kicking about down the back of the national sofa I guess we'd be hoping to get this one back.

I dont dispute the validity of the process. I dont know the coffee this morning was pretty good, maybe i gotten bitten by the idealist I have worked years to suppress.

That can be very nasty, idealism....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For me perhaps I am being to nationalist in my thinking but this is a document of historical importance to England. In my mind its a cultural item that should be embraced by the population as historically signifigant and cherished.

The fact that it is up for private sale bothers me, I dont dispute the validity of the process. I dont know the coffee this morning was pretty good, maybe i gotten bitten by the idealist I have worked years to suppress.

I don't know, as the Lawyer says, we have several copies already in Blighty and a lot of the English still don't know what the Magna Carta is. I don't think it's all that important really, beyond curtailing the power of the monarch a tiny bit. It shows a clawing back of a certain amount of what we lost in 1066.

[Odin]

I don't know, as the Lawyer says, we have several copies already in Blighty and a lot of the English still don't know what the Magna Carta is. I don't think it's all that important really, beyond curtailing the power of the monarch a tiny bit. It shows a clawing back of a certain amount of what we lost in 1066.

Well I guess my line of thinking is somewhat flawed given where we are in 2007, I have found an appaling lack of connection to the past in my own country.

that said i'd hate to see a document of state (at one point thats what this was) of historical signifigance end up in a private collection, even if there are 2-3 laying around.

[AntiochusIII]

that said i'd hate to see a document of state (at one point thats what this was) of historical signifigance end up in a private collection, even if there are 2-3 laying around.

Agreed. If only for safekeeping and future historical studies. Old copies have much more -historical- value than the texts on them. Who knows what new methods would come up to study said documents and what new knowledge we might glean from it?

How are we supposed to preserve knowledge for mankind if the sources of said knowledge are sold to the highest bidder into a private museum of some rich dude who probably considered them just prestige pieces?

[Banquo's Ghost]

For me perhaps I am being to nationalist in my thinking but this is a document of historical importance to England. In my mind its a cultural item that should be embraced by the population as historically signifigant and cherished.

One might argue that it is a document of historical importance to the entire world, enshrining as it does one of the most significant steps towards human rights. The concepts within the Magna Carta were exported across the globe.

It would therefore be a great shame for it to be bought by a private collector and hidden away in a vault somewhere, but I would be happy to see it on public display (even if privately owned) in any country, particularly the United States alongside the Declaration of Independence, for example.

With the caveat of course, that the United Kingdom still holds on to at least one ancient copy for her own people to reflect upon.

[Odin]

One might argue that it is a document of historical importance to the entire world, enshrining as it does one of the most significant steps towards human rights. The concepts within the Magna Carta were exported across the globe.

It would therefore be a great shame for it to be bought by a private collector and hidden away in a vault somewhere, but I would be happy to see it on public display (even if privately owned) in any country, particularly the United States alongside the Declaration of Independence, for example.

With the caveat of course, that the United Kingdom still holds on to at least one ancient copy for her own people to reflect upon.

I dont disagree with you that it might be of importance to the whole world. I guess my line of thinking is more along a nationalist line, to me (again just my take) the magna carta is an english document, and a signifigant item in british history 1st, the world second.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I dont disagree with you that it might be of importance to the whole world. I guess my line of thinking is more along a nationalist line, to me (again just my take) the magna carta is an english document, and a signifigant item in british history 1st, the world second.

I don't disagree with you. If it was the only extant copy, I would urge every effort to be made to secure it for the country wherein it originated.

Since there are several copies, and this appears to be one of the later ones, it would seem to be unrealistic to spend vast sums of taxpayers money trying to get it back from abroad.

(And just to be a teensy bit churlish, if the UK made serious claims to ownership by national origin, the poor old British Museum would lose its Marbles...)