Portrayal of Ptolemaic Egypt in Film+TV

[J.Alco]

I just need to get this written down, since it's been bugging me for a while.

A coupla weeks ago I finished watching season 2 of HBO's Rome (the series). While I think it's perhaps the most accurate portrayal of Ancient Rome yet in the media (dubious army uniforms, shields, tactics, and flags notwithstanding) I was, to say the least, dissapointed with how the producers chose to represent Egypt as still being caught in the time of Pharaos, worship of the old gods (Ra et al), painted eyes, curious wigs, and gilded make-up. Having read here on EB, as well as several dozen other history books/articles and internet sources, that Egypt under the Ptolemaic dynasty was turned into another version of Greece (Greek religion being followed by rulers, armies modified to hellenic standards, and direct descendents of Ptolemy Soter being the ones governing the country, not to mention the rulers adopting the same dress-codes and language) I found it dissapointing that the series producers chose to stick with the outdated 'Tutankhamen-Ramses II' version of Egypt.

At least Cleopatra, in the series, was portrayed as having fairer skin and a more european look, which as far as I know is pretty accurate (She was, after all, of Greek descent).

Now I'm just wondering. Has there been any portrayal in any film/tv medium (even if it was a documentary) that accurately portrayed Ptolemaic Egypt? Or has the 'RTW Mummy Returns' Egypt the only version portrayed in the Media?

Or is it that I am wrong? I mean, did the rulers really begin assimilating local culture to that extent? (I mean, a few customs being adopted I can understand, but worshipping the sun-God? Call me skeptical but I have a hard time buying it)

Anyway. Just needed to vent on that. Like I said, I love Rome, and truth be told, the whole Egypt thing was only a small distraction, not a downside. Just had to get this offa my chest.

[Watchman]

What I know is that most comics involving the period I've seen clearly haven't done their homework in the matter...

That aside, while I don't know the details I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the Ptolemies only too readily adopted most of the Pharaohs' trappings to help shore up their somewhat lackluster legitimacy in the eyes of the common folk. They came up with at least one new deity for the same purpose, didn't they ?

[Bootsiuv]

Ptolemy Soter I took the title of Pharoah, and the residents of the Ptolemaic Empire, greek or otherwise, did worship the sun god Amun-Ra, in the form of Zues-Amun.

Now, to what extent they actually adopted local dress, language, customs, etc. is probably debateable. I would think they would have used as many of the native customs as they could bring themselves to, as that has the effect of sedating the native population.

I'm sure the official government language was greek, but they probably adopted local languages as well. The rosetta stone comes to mind...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think Cleopatra - Burton and Taylor and Harrison and co. - comes closer than anything else I've seen. That was pretty much the consensus of a friend of mine who taught a Cleopatra course this past spring too. Comparing what all is out there of course, not what might ideally be created. There's a lot of "grittyness" and detail that shows like Rome get across though that those older movies don't convey, and there's realism in that of course too. A sort of combination to the detail and "commonness" of HBO's Rome's sets and character portrayal and the sets, casting, grandeur of the Cleopatra, with the attention (more than just nominal at least) to historical detail of both would be something really awesome to behold imho.

[iamroot]

I think the portrayal was pretty accurate in ROME. I mean, the Ptolemies pretty much assimilated with the local culture to a very great degree.

[paullus]

no, it wasn't.

The Ptolemies were Greek. A few of them at various times were looked upon very harshly by other Greeks for their excessive indulgence in luxury, which may have involved some Pharaonic trappings. Generally, however, they remained rather Hellenic; they allowed--encouraged--the native Egyptians, and particularly the priests of the native cults, to think of them in a Pharoanic sense. So there were inscriptions drawn out to look like decrees of the Middle Kingdom, and multilingual decrees which included heiroglyphics, but they spoke Greek, and were generally great supporters and partarkers of Hellenic culture.

It also ticked me off to the see the ridiculous Egyptian guards--Ethiopians in goofy getups. Kleopatra had a bodyguard of Galatians. Get it right, HBO!

[Bellum]

I don't think Egypt itself changed all that much. The common people were still Egyptian.

Islam probably had a greater effect. You can confuse Ra with Zeus, but not with 'God'.

[Watchman]

Dunno 'bout that, by what I've read of it you can still even these days run into some pretty weird amalgamations in sufficiently out-of-the-way corners. Common folks were rarely terribly pedantic about these things.

[Thaatu]

Holy shit, Watchman finally changed his avatar from the default. Anyway, this isn't actually relevant, but there's this adventure game Daughter of the Serpent, a Call of Cthuklkrijhirg-something related, which dwells in the subject of Ptolemaic Egypt from an archeologist's perspective. It may either educate (if you choose to play an egyptologist specialized in ptolemaic era) or give the chills. It's abandonware now so it can be found here for free. Requires some tweaking with DOSBox to work.

[Zaknafien]

I dont know, the whole Judeo-Christian-Islam mythology is simply a twist on more ancient egyptian mythology, and all can be characterized as Sun-god worship. Jesus for example is an amalgamation of Horus

[Watchman]

I thought it was more influenced by the ancient Mesopotamian belief systems ?

[Zaknafien]

I'm sure it is, but the Judeo religions in general and Christianity specifically can be directly corellated to Egyptian mythology and worship of the Sun, the Zodiac, and movements of the Sun through the sky at the equinox and solstices.

[antisocialmunky]

I've always disagreed with those theories, but I'm curious as to why you think so. I'm not familiar with the fine points of Ye-Olde Egyptian practices but am familiar with the Mosaic Law.

[Zaknafien]

From

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

The chart of similarites is the most telling. both were born of a virgin under a special star on/around Dec 25th (solar), both had 12 disciples, both were betrayed by a disciple, both were crucified, both were ressurrected after 3 days, etc, etc etc.

Its all about the zodiac and the constellations. The cross is metaphorical for the "Cross of the Zodiac" upon which the Sun 'dies' every year, reaching its lowest point on the horizon in the dead of winter. Then, after 3 days, it begins to rise again, being "resurrected". Its very fascinating what ancient peoples knew about the heavens.

Parallels between Jesus &
Horus, an Egyptian God
Quotations:
bullet "The Christian myths were first related of Horus or Osiris, who was the embodiment of divine goodness, wisdom, truth and purity...This was the greatest hero that ever lived in the mind of man -- not in the flesh -- the only hero to whom the miracles were natural because he was not human." 1
bullet "...I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:4, King James Version. This passage may have an additional and completely different meaning from that usually assigned.


Background:

About Yeshua of Nazareth: He is commonly referred to as Jesus Christ, although Joshua would be a more accurate translation of his first name. "Christ" is not his last name; it is simply the Greek word for "Messiah," or "anointed one." Theologians have discovered about 50 gospels which were widely used by Jewish, Pauline and Gnostic groups within the early Christian movement. Only four of these were chosen by the surviving group, Pauline Christianity, and were included in the Bible. Those four Gospels describe Jesus as a Jew who was born to a virgin in Palestine circa 4 to 7 BCE. He is portrayed as a rabbi, teacher, healer, exorcist, magician, prophet, and religious leader who had a one year (according to Mark, Matthew and Luke) or a three year (according to John) ministry in Palestine, starting when he was about 30 years old. Most Christians believe that he was executed by the Roman occupying army, visited the underworld, was resurrected, spent 40 days with his disciples, and then ascended to heaven. Most Christian denominations view Jesus as God, and as the Son of God, the second person in the Trinity.|

Conservative Christians view the Gospels as being inerrant whose authors were inspired by God. The Gospels and other passages in the Bible are mostly interpreted literally. Muslims revere Jesus as a great prophet -- next only to Muhammad in importance. They regard the assertion that Jesus is God to be blasphemy.

About Horus: Various ancient Egyptian statues and writings tell of Horus, (pronounced "hohr'-uhs;"
a.k.a. Harseisis, Heru-sa-Aset (Horus, son of Isis), Heru-ur (Horus the elder), Hr, and Hrw), a creator sky God. He was worshipped thousands of years before the first century CE -- the time when Jesus was ministering in Palestine. 2 Horus was often represented as a stylized eye symbol, symbolizing the eye of a falcon. He was also presented "in the shape of a sparrow hawk or as a man [or lion] with a hawk's head." 3 He is often shown as an infant cradled by his mother Isis. He was considered to be the son of two major Egyptian deities: the God Osirus and and the Goddess Isis. In adulthood, he avenged his father's murder, and became recognized as the God of civil order and justice. Each of the Egyptian pharaohs were believed to be the living embodiment -- an incarnation -- of Horus. 4


"A list of the names of all the gods of Egypt would fill pages. But all these gods were only forms, attributes or phases of Ra, the solar god, who himself was the supreme symbol or metaphor for God....Horus, the son of Osirus and Isis, is himself an aspect of Ra." 6


Life events shared by Horus and Jesus

Stories from the life of Horus had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the followers of Jesus who incorporated into his biography the myths and legends of Horus, not vice-versa.

Author and theologian Tom Harpur studied the works of three authors who have written about ancient Egyptian religion: Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), Gerald Massey (1828-1907) and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963). Harpur incorporated some of their findings into his book "Pagan Christ." He argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. "[Author Gerald] Massey discovered nearly two hundred instances of immediate correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus. Horus indeed was the archetypal Pagan Christ." 7

Regarding Mosaic law, among other things, the "ten commandments" can be directly lifted from the Book of the Dead.

[Xehh II]

I totally agrre about the Jesus/Horus thing but wasn't this thread about the Portrayal of Ptolemaic Egypt in Film/TV?

[antisocialmunky]

From

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

The chart of similarites is the most telling. both were born of a virgin under a special star on/around Dec 25th (solar), both had 12 disciples, both were betrayed by a disciple, both were crucified, both were ressurrected after 3 days, etc, etc etc.

Its all about the zodiac and the constellations. The cross is metaphorical for the "Cross of the Zodiac" upon which the Sun 'dies' every year, reaching its lowest point on the horizon in the dead of winter. Then, after 3 days, it begins to rise again, being "resurrected". Its very fascinating what ancient peoples knew about the heavens.

Regarding Mosaic law, among other things, the "ten commandments" can be directly lifted from the Book of the Dead.

Well, while it is interesting to see the things compared side by side, I'd have to say that on certain points, its reading too much into things.

For example, no bithdate is given for Jesus but the 25th was adopted because of practices in other parts of the Mediterranian and Europe that also used that date as the death and rebirth of the sun. In fact, much of these traditions that equate Jesus and the sun were adopted after the first century when Christianity became infused with Greek and different local religions. Another example of this is the picture of Jesus being cradled by Mary which was developped also after the first century and may or may not be a prexisting archetype for a caring mother figure. And these are just two instances.

While the parallels are actually quite interesting, but I don't think its sound on the basis that the author or the author of the original text(s) seem to pick and choose only certain points. I mean, if you read the whole of the accounts of Horus and the Gospels, could you say that Jesus's life was based on it? If you looked at the belief systems of both, could you say that Judeo religions had an Egyptian base if you consider that the ancients Jews did not have an after life in their concept of 'hell' in Sheol or concept of a 'soul' that transcends death?

As cool as that page is, I don't think the research is without its faults.

Also, with regards of the book of the dead, I think to say that it was 'directly lifted' is an exaggeration. I mean, look at it:

The account in question(from the religious tolerance site):

"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions. 5

Exodus:

“I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3#You must not have any other gods against my face.

4#“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5#You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; 6#but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7#“You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

8#“Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, 9#you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. 10#But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates. 11#For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.

12#“Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

13#“You must not murder.

14#“You must not commit adultery.

15#“You must not steal.

16#“You must not testify falsely as a witness against your fellowman.

17#“You must not desire your fellowman’s house. You must not desire your fellowman’s wife, nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his ass nor anything that belongs to your fellowman.”

Deuteronomy

‘You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave anyone unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

12#“‘Keeping the sabbath day to hold it sacred, just as Jehovah your God commanded you, 13#you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. 14#But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter nor your slave man nor your slave girl nor your bull nor your ass nor any domestic animal of yours nor your alien resident who is inside your gates, in order that your slave man and your slave girl may rest the same as you. 15#And you must remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and Jehovah your God proceeded to bring you out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why Jehovah your God commanded you to carry on the sabbath day.

16#“‘Honor your father and your mother, just as Jehovah your God has commanded you; in order that your days may prove long and it may go well with you on the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

17#“‘You must not murder.

18#“‘Neither must you commit adultery.

19#“‘Neither must you steal.

20#“‘Neither must you testify to a falsehood against your fellowman.

21#“‘Neither must you desire your fellowman’s wife. Neither must you selfishly crave your fellowman’s house, his field or his slave man or his slave girl, his bull or his ass or anything that belongs to your fellowman.’

Now, if you're careful, you can tell where I'm coming from - but I digress. Only about four are shared between the two things. Nothing about damming flowing water or quenching a fire. I mean, its the same case if you try to compare the code of Hammurabi to the Mosaic law, there are the some similarities but the focus in both is different from a careful reading.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a backroom discussion and atleast end it before someone posts the bible fight picture so if you want to continue this, we could go into PM or something.

Also, yes I agree that the ancients had an amazing understanding of the sky. However, given enough time and energy coupled with the drive of human curiosity we should hardly be surprised. Mankind hasn't really changed in the last several thousand years, they've only found better ways of doing the same thing.

[Andronikos]

Ptolemaics were greeks and they had greek customs. But they gave religious and cultural freedom to natives and also took some of their practises (titles...) to be more popular. Popularity and stability were important - Egypt was the most stable diadochi kingdom as Alexander was their "saviour" not a conqueror like in persia. I am talking about the first 3 kings who made egypt the strongest and the richest kingdom in the mediterranean. Late kings were weak and destroyed what heir ancestors did. Hanibal during his conquest considered egypt to be weak to help him and did not ask for aliance.
Later kings were one like another and their reign was full of rebelions, fights for throne and stupid politics.

[Bootsiuv]

Where's the Ptolemaic team expert to answer all of our questions? Does EB not have a Ptolemy expert? I find that difficult to believe...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

An expert on what movie or tv show was most accurate? It's been answered.

[Bootsiuv]

I understand that, I was just curious...

....and not an expert on tv/films, I meant an expert on Ptolemaic egypt.

[Magister Militum Titus Pullo]

Television historical dramas never are on the ball when it comes to their subject matter. Take the scenes in H.B.O'S "Rome" series where Cleopatra, Octavia and others where actually smoking opium, for example. What the f*ck were these people thinking? How did they get it into their thick heads that people smoked back then? It would have been more believable if opium was chewed or mixed into their wine. Idiots.

[Zaknafien]

they probably wanted to show people smoking because thats what their audience would understand, to convey the drug-addled state of the characters involved.

[Long lost Caesar]

i thought back then people DID smoke. i mean, pipes have been around for quite a while...havent they?
and as for the portrayal of ptolemaic egypt, i personally saw it as alright, but then again most of the western world DOES see egypt as pharoah worshiping chariot lovers so it could be a stereotype influenced thing.

[hoom]

How about in the movie Alexander? Only shows Ptolemy wandering around talking to a scribe & some backgrounds of the harbour but those scenes had a very Greek feel rather than Pharonic.

[paullus]

Those scenes were better. And the one asking for a Ptolemaic expert, what in the world are you asking about? Several EB people gave firm answers early on--with what questions are you still concerned?

[Maeran]

I didn't think he was Ptolemy until they called him Pharaoh near the end.

Greek man, not very 'kingy,' in what could have been a library. At first I had him down as a slightly anachronistic Erastosthenes.

[Moros]

It's funny, this week I had a college about this. And something I remembered was the fact that none of the greek leaders spoke Egyptian except for the last one, Cleopatra (the one with the noes).

Anyway to put it short, The leaders were influenced by Egyptian culture, but they were mostly greek in culture, appearance,...

[Zaknafien]

Im sure they werent above putting on the Pharonic regalia though for some public appearances, etc, though.

[Bootsiuv]

Those scenes were better. And the one asking for a Ptolemaic expert, what in the world are you asking about? Several EB people gave firm answers early on--with what questions are you still concerned?

You guys seem to have took that the wrong way. I was simply curious, who, if anyone, was an EB Ptolemaic Expert i.e. someone who focuses on Ptolemaic Egypt like Foot focuses on Hayasdan.

I am well aware of the fact that some EB members gave answers....

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Some of the ones that have replied on it already are our specialists in these areas. We don't have someone who just wears a "Ptolemaioi" hat and does nothing else.