Elephants , incredibly expensive.

[carthage_supreme]

starting a game as epeirotes , after playing a few turns i had an extremely high inflatation (-50 000). Why are elephants sooo expensive? i know it's due to add to the realism , but then again it makes the game unbalanced. It was the same for the bigger ships in an advanced stage playing carthage , they cost up to 2600+ in upkeep.

[NeoSpartan]

because they were expensive.

[carthage_supreme]

because they were expensive.

Yes but in the game they're unreasonibly expensive, one unit of elephants costs 2600. Yes they where expensive, but then again you have to consider that econimicly those empires propbably earned in gold is uncomperable to what there virtual equivalent in EB does. It's kinda unbalanced, that a one unit of elephants would tear the hole economy of a empire apart.

[NeoSpartan]

well I see what ur saying it is unbablanced... but then again... this is not a mod about "balance". Historically some factions were stonger than others in a few aspects of their army. ex: Romani Cohorts Imperatoria is extremely strong, very numerous, good morale, and cheap. They are better or at oar with a other faction's Elite infantry which tend to be expensive and less numerous. However, the Romani Imperial cavalry wing ain't worth 2 f***s in combat, plus it is expensive.

IF u want elephants you gotta have the $$ to support them, and thats a LOT of $$.

Some of the EB team might be albe to elaborate more than I can.

[Tellos Athenaios]

We've had this issue before; when my math outwitted Thaatu's reasoning. It is a combination of:
-The size you set in Video Options
-The fact that upkeep is regardless of forementioned Video Option

Besides the new Elephant skins will make it worth it.

[Olaf The Great]

Be like me and either double their unit size or halve(well technically 2/3'd) their price.

(I halved all boats :P)

[Thaatu]

We've had this issue before; when my math outwitted Thaatu's reasoning.

Hey, what the -!... I mean, it wasn't -! Look, I... You, uh... You didn't outwit me, I just didn't think of anything else to say. There you go.


The obvious follow up for my question was why have they been balanced to large unit size, since most players and many more in the future use huge, because computers are constantly getting more powerful, but I didn't ask it 'cos I didn't want to be a rash. But this reminds me of a possible bug/glitch/something-bad-happening, that I'm not sure I brought up in that discussion:

Why do elephant units with archers cost the same or more as elephant units without? If an elephant unit has archers and such, the amount of elephants in the unit drops. I don't remember exactly how the elephant stuff goes with Carthage, but it went something like this: A 24 man melee-only elephant unit has 24 crew members with 24 elephants, and a 24 man missile elephant unit has 24 crew members with 12 elephants, while the cost is almost or the same. The upkeeps and costs should probably notice the change in the amount of elephants.

[Son of Perun]

starting a game as epeirotes , after playing a few turns i had an extremely high inflatation (-50 000). Why are elephants sooo expensive? i know it's due to add to the realism , but then again it makes the game unbalanced. It was the same for the bigger ships in an advanced stage playing carthage , they cost up to 2600+ in upkeep.

Breeding and training elephants is difficult even today. Elephant eats about 160kg of forage per day. Captivity and battle-training is very stressful for elephants (elephant is a peaceful animal, a very cruel training is needed to make it a killing machine) and causes them die earlier. In 10 years about 1/5 of the herd dies and numbers have to be replenished by new elephants from India or Africa. That's why they are so expensive.

[TWFanatic]

I find it rather ridiculous that basic skirmishers, some of the cheapest units in the game, can easily bring down a massive number of elephants.

But they artillery are worse. They are extremely expensive, slow on the campaign map, and nearly worthless on the battlefield. But they are best used in sieges, you say. Well, you can build a few ladders and assault towers in their place for free! The cost of artillery far outweighs their use. Does anyone seriously use artillery in EB?

[Bootsiuv]

Not seriously I'd wager, but it's pretty sweet to see a successful hit from an onager in an open field battle.

I'd never use them seriously though....the game mechanics of free siege towers, ladders, etc. basically nuters any use they would have had in "serious" campaigns.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The cost of artillery far outweighs their use. Does anyone seriously use artillery in EB?

Me! Me! Me!

a) Hopping from island to island by ships; taking settlements with the army each turn - because I have the siege guys.
b) I don't fancy assaulting stone walls with sphendonetai standing on them - and I don't fancy assaulting those eastern cities with hordes of archers in them either...

[TWFanatic]

a) Hopping from island to island by ships; taking settlements with the army each turn - because I have the siege guys.
b) I don't fancy assaulting stone walls with sphendonetai standing on them - and I don't fancy assaulting those eastern cities with hordes of archers in them either...

a)Any time you save by taking a settlement the same turn you besiege it is more than made up for by the incredibly slow speed at which they march.
b)Sapping does basically the same thing, and it's free! As for wooden walls, it is only necessary to use a battering ram.

If you persist to advocate the usefulness of artillery, I will be forced to calculate how many hundreds of other units you could buy with that same money. Heck, you could afford enough men to PUSH over the freaking wall with the dough you spend on arty.

[Bootsiuv]

I shall persist to advocate the usefullness of artillery....let's see some numbers please. :P

[NeoSpartan]

a)Any time you save by taking a settlement the same turn you besiege it is more than made up for by the incredibly slow speed at which they march.
b)Sapping does basically the same thing, and it's free! As for wooden walls, it is only necessary to use a battering ram.

If you persist to advocate the usefulness of artillery, I will be forced to calculate how many hundreds of other units you could buy with that same money. Heck, you could afford enough men to PUSH over the freaking wall with the dough you spend on arty.

TW you are mising the point.. When u have a big enough economy and you are at war with a lot of people, but they have a LOT of rich cities defended by 1 or 2 units close the sea thats when U GO VIKING!!!.
Just look at how many HUGE cities are next to the Mediterranian sea LOTS of them, with 15K+ populations and HUGE buildings..... and that means $30k-40k+!!!! Plus the benefit of damaging the AI's infrastructure.

So again, IF u have a good enough economy and you are at war with LOT OF PEOPLE with cities bordering the Mediteranian sea here is what u do:
1-Get a ship,
2-Train a full stack with a Young and Healthy general.
3-Add a powerfull siege weapon to that stack.
4-Don't put a lot of cavarly in that stack u don't need that much.
5-Get eveyone into that ship!!!
6-Sail to the nearest city.
7-STOP right before u hit the coast line.
8-Wait a turn to replenish ur walking points.
9-Land
10-Siege
11-Attack
12-Loot
13-Rinse
14-Repeat!

In the course of a few turns you will be able to hit several cities and SACK a lot of $$. U don't need to return to retrain, buy Mercs on the coast when u land. Now.... how many turns and battles and HOURS would it take you to say, Go from KH to Carthege via FOOT!

get it ?

[Tellos Athenaios]

a)Any time you save by taking a settlement the same turn you besiege it is more than made up for by the incredibly slow speed at which they march.

But not so when you're moving by ships...

b)Sapping does basically the same thing, and it's free! As for wooden walls, it is only necessary to use a battering ram.

Not exactly when said sphendonetai are standing on top of the walls... I used to be very 'pleased' with sapping points standing in the middle of some are enclosed by a C-shaped stretch of wall with towers everywhere and slingers/archers on top of those...

If you persist to advocate the usefulness of artillery, I will be forced to calculate how many hundreds of other units you could buy with that same money.

It sure seems like it...

Heck, you could afford enough men to PUSH over the freaking wall with the dough you spend on arty.

And what would the sphendonetai do to such an assault?

[Tellos Athenaios]

TW you are mising the point.. When u have a big enough economy and you are at war with a lot of people, but they have a LOT of rich cities defended by 1 or 2 units close the sea thats when U GO VIKING!!!.
Just look at how many HUGE cities are next to the Mediterranian sea LOTS of them, with 15K+ populations and HUGE buildings..... and that means $30k-40k+!!!! Plus the benefit of damaging the AI's infrastructure.

So again, IF u have a good enough economy and you are at war with LOT OF PEOPLE with cities bordering the Mediteranian sea here is what u do:
1-Get a ship,
2-Train a full stack with a Young and Healthy general.
3-Add a powerfull siege weapon to that stack.
4-Don't put a lot of cavarly in that stack u don't need that much.
5-Get eveyone into that ship!!!
6-Sail to the nearest city.
7-STOP right before u hit the coast line.
8-Wait a turn to replenish ur walking points.
9-Land
10-Siege
11-Attack
12-Loot
13-Rinse
14-Repeat!

In the course of a few turns you will be able to hit several cities and SACK a lot of $$. U don't need to return to retrain, buy Mercs on the coast when u land. Now.... how many turns and battles and HOURS would it take you to say, Go from KH to Carthege via FOOT!

get it ?

I put it a bit different; still it's about what I mean. (I tend to keep the cities; because I often play as med-bordering factions; hence the added trade lines bring in much and quick income. Still even if you only tear apart the MICs and enslave the people...

[TWFanatic]

TW you are mising the point.. When u have a big enough economy and you are at war with a lot of people, but they have a LOT of rich cities defended by 1 or 2 units close the sea thats when U GO VIKING!!!.
Just look at how many HUGE cities are next to the Mediterranian sea LOTS of them, with 15K+ populations and HUGE buildings..... and that means $30k-40k+!!!! Plus the benefit of damaging the AI's infrastructure.

So again, IF u have a good enough economy and you are at war with LOT OF PEOPLE with cities bordering the Mediteranian sea here is what u do:
1-Get a ship,
2-Train a full stack with a Young and Healthy general.
3-Add a powerfull siege weapon to that stack.
4-Don't put a lot of cavarly in that stack u don't need that much.
5-Get eveyone into that ship!!!
6-Sail to the nearest city.
7-STOP right before u hit the coast line.
8-Wait a turn to replenish ur walking points.
9-Land
10-Siege
11-Attack
12-Loot
13-Rinse
14-Repeat!

In the course of a few turns you will be able to hit several cities and SACK a lot of $$. U don't need to return to retrain, buy Mercs on the coast when u land. Now.... how many turns and battles and HOURS would it take you to say, Go from KH to Carthege via FOOT!

get it ?

...and what does this have to do with what we were talking about (artillery)? Pretty random stuff there.

But not so when you're moving by ships...

Yes so, artillery slow down ships as well. Just imagine if that fancy equipment you paid 15k ended up in the ocean...

Not exactly when said sphendonetai are standing on top of the walls... I used to be very 'pleased' with sapping points standing in the middle of some are enclosed by a C-shaped stretch of wall with towers everywhere and slingers/archers on top of those...

I used to think like that with other RTW mods, in which artillery was affordable. EB forced me to develop other tactics though since artillery is way overpriced. Don't attack where the enemy places his men. Climb the walls unapposed and circle the settlement, taking all the towers. Then you can simply walk in through the gates.

With the money you spend to train and upkeep arty, you could by an entire army of fodder to absorb all the sphendonetai missiles. Did you know you can also fire on missile units that are on walls from the ground below? An entire army of slingers would not only crush those sphendonetai but also still cost less than the immobile rock thrower. Consider their use in open field battles as well.

[Bootsiuv]

I have to agree that artillery is generally useless, unless used in narrow circumstances like the island hopping campaigns described above (although I seem to recall the movement of land units affecting the movement of ships, but I may be wrong).

Even when it's more affordable, it still has very limited field applications, and (due to the game's current siege system, where armies are given "build points" and can build free siege equipment) near useless siege applications.

Onagers and the like do offer the convenience of besieging and attacking a settlement on the same turn, but elephants can accomplish the same thing, and they're actually somewhat useful in field battles.

It's also a very rare occurrence where I feel like I can't wait one turn for my towers and sap points to be built.

[NeoSpartan]

TW... I am trying to explain to you how you can exploit artillery's ONLY advantage to REALLY make you some $$.
-The artillery's advantage is that it allows u take a town in the same turn. So by landing, pillaging, and leaving all in one turn you are making a profit out of the artillery.

This Viking stuff I just described is one VERY good way to make BIG $$ with artillery, while at the same time hurting the AI's MICs.

This is something you do in the LATE game. Once u have a big economy and you can sail the seas with impunity.

I know that there are other ways to take cities in one turn.
-Spies can open doors too, but that doesn't always work especially in homeland settlements with the faction leader as the governor. Also in walled cities opened doors are sometimes not good enough to take a town.
-Also u can siege a town and the AI will "usually" send a small nearby force to break the siege. U use this opportunity to kill the garison as it comes out to meet u in battle. Then u just walk into the city. However, sometimes this isn't possible as there may be 1 or 2 full stacks nearby the city.

[Bootsiuv]

While the situations you describe are indeed true, it still doesn't validate bringing along onagers IMO.

Expenses aside (as these are usually easily dealt with by the time the first true artillery, onagers, become available)the one major flaw holding back artillery from playing a more important and active role in eb armies is the movement penalty. I think it's stupid and unrealistic....they didn't push the damn things the entire way....they would disassemble and reassemble artillery as needed, and the baggage train travelled with the army. Giving artillery movement penalties is stupid as far as I'm concerned.

If it isn't hardcoded, they should be given the range of standard infantry IMO. That would greatly increase their usefulness. I actually might consider using them then.

[overweightninja]

While the situations you describe are indeed true, it still doesn't validate bringing along onagers IMO.

Expenses aside (as these are usually easily dealt with by the time the first true artillery, onagers, become available)the one major flaw holding back artillery from playing a more important and active role in eb armies is the movement penalty. I think it's stupid and unrealistic....they didn't push the damn things the entire way....they would disassemble and reassemble artillery as needed, and the baggage train travelled with the army. Giving artillery movement penalties is stupid as far as I'm concerned.

If it isn't hardcoded, they should be given the range of standard infantry IMO. That would greatly increase their usefulness. I actually might consider using them then.

concur

[NightStar]

@Bootsiuv

There I agree, remove the movement penalty and I would use them more as well. Now I mostly use them when I am filty rich and want some diversity

[Tellos Athenaios]

The penalty, however, seems impossible to remove... And that's the only thing I have against the unit - apart from them still being Vanilla style; since EB hasn't gotten around remodelling & reskinning them if it is possible at all.

Still: I rather object more to depleting entire cities from levy-able people for the sake of countering a couple of units of sphendonetai on the walls. And I like the idea of recreating a Poliorketes-like character; but I guess that's just me.

[TWFanatic]

EB has onagers?

[Tellos Athenaios]

No, but I think he meant Stone Projectors.

[Long lost Caesar]

havent personally used onagers or any siege yet, but i loved them in RTW. only problem was their accuracy was awful. I could personally manage one on my own better than a team of them!
As for the slow movement, well it does suck, and I agree that, if its possible, it should be fixed, since they would have disassembled them. Hell they were probably easier to carry than metal-stuffs!

[Bootsiuv]

Oh, yeah...I meant the 3-span throwers and all of that crap....see, that goes to show you how much I use Artillery in EB.

@Tellos Athenios

Artilleries movement penalty is HARDCODED? Are you friggin kidding me? That seems like a pretty stupid thing to hardcode.

[TWFanatic]

OFF TOPIC QUESTION: Is it also hardcoded that generals with good movement traits can't effect the speed at which their armies march? This has always annoyed me about RTW. Alexander, Barca, Caesar, the men with these famous names could use their charisma to make their men press on. Why isn't it so in RTW?

[Bootsiuv]

They're is a forced march though.

Generals with certain movement traits can "force march" their troops IIRC. I seem to remember something like....a character will move the entire green line, and then another little green area will pop up after you assumed all of his move points were gone.

I've always assumed that this was the "forced march". The strange thing is, diplomats and spies seem to have the "forced march" ability on occasion, which seems odd.

[TWFanatic]

Forced march = using all of a character's movement points as far as I know. But this trait is almost useless when traveling with an army, because a character who has the honor of leading an army will nearly always have far more movement points than the army.