javelin V phalanx

**Sarkiss** · 10-03-2007, 17:53

Originally Posted by NeoSpartan

what difficutly where u playing in?????

Phalanxes are given strong defensive points for frontal attacks, while having lower defensive points for side or rear attacks.

playing o Medium battle difficulty.
it is obvious that frontal defence should be and is better, but not to a degree when they are completely invinsible, super men.

**Charge** · 10-03-2007, 18:03

Thats becoz of a very low javelin' atack IMO. And yes , phalanx gains very big bonus against missiles coz of "spears, which beat off missiles", in any direction, btw. From rear they only haven't shield defence.

**mcantu** · 10-03-2007, 18:06

There is also a defense bonus just for being in the phalanx formation

**Ludens** · 10-03-2007, 18:17

Neither difficulty nor defense will influence missile effectivenes, only the armour and shield values do. Phalangites generally are well-armoured have increased shield values to simulate the deflective abilities of their formation. They are somewhat lower in defense than similarly trained and equiped troops, though, but that does not influence the current situation.

Also, javelins are rather weak in EB: historically they were more an irritative weapon than a killing one. Frontal javelin attacks at phalanxes are not very effective: you have to get to their unshielded side or their back in order to do serious damage, and even then don't expect a single unit of peltasts to be able to cripple a phalanx unit,

**TWFanatic** · 10-03-2007, 18:20

Phalanx doubles the shield value of a unit. Thus, attacking phalanxes head on or at their left (where they carry shields) with missiles is not as effective as assaults to the rear or right flank.

**Ludens** · 10-03-2007, 18:33

Originally Posted by TWFanatic

Phalanx doubles the shield value of a unit. Thus, attacking phalanxes head on or at their left (where they carry shields) with missiles is not as effective as assaults to the rear or right flank.

How have you tested that?

**konny** · 10-04-2007, 00:05

Originally Posted by Ludens

How have you tested that?

Try it at siege, for example. When the enemy has a phalanx, or anything else with a good shield, behind the wall, place your slingers in range: they won't do any damage frontal or when the enemy is turning right (presenting you his shield arm) - but as soon as he is turning left or about face you will very well see the difference.

Therefore: Do not place your archers, slingers etc. behind the enemy, because you will hit your men as well; place them on your left wing and let them rip through the unproteced right side of the enemy.

**Sarkiss** · 10-03-2007, 18:24

a single unit? i dont think even 4 units will be able to achieve that.
javelins imo way too underpowered. first 2,3 volley are of no use whatsoever.
it is just bizzare to see 240 and more javelns being completely obserbed.
would make more sense if the unit was of a smaller size with the same killng ratio. why is it so large anyway?

**Bootsiuv** · 10-03-2007, 18:32

I think a good workaround for overpowered skirmishers would be to give them only 2-3 javelins (IIRC skirmishers have something like 5-10 right now), but increase javelins missle damage by a good margin. That way, just one volley will be fairly devestating, but they won't have the ammo to wipe out entire armies.

**Sarkiss** · 10-03-2007, 19:14

Originally Posted by Bootsiuv

I think a good workaround for overpowered skirmishers would be to give them only 2-3 javelins (IIRC skirmishers have something like 5-10 right now), but increase javelins missle damage by a good margin. That way, just one volley will be fairly devestating, but they won't have the ammo to wipe out entire armies.

but we do not have overpowered javelineers

reducing ammo for skirmishers? hm. iirc infantry have something around 3,4 so skirmishers should definitely have at least twice the amount.
what seems reasonable to me is reducing unit size (is there a reason for them to big so huge? they are only secondary, supportive troops after all) for light skirmishers form 240 to 160 and for heavier types from 160 to 120 leaving current "killing" ratio the way it is. that why you wouldnt scratch your head wandering where all those hundreds of javelins flew.

**jhhowell** · 10-03-2007, 22:26

Originally Posted by Sarkiss

a single unit? i dont think even 4 units will be able to achieve that.
javelins imo way too underpowered. first 2,3 volley are of no use whatsoever.
it is just bizzare to see 240 and more javelns being completely obserbed.

In my experience, what you are complaining of is only true for frontal attacks. Phalanxes melt away very quickly when a skirmisher unit or two gets behind them and starts unloading. A single Numidian/Akontistai/Peltast unit won't kill a phalanx, but two will rout it as surely as a cavalry charge. If the tactical situation allows, I'd much prefer to have a javelin unit or two firing into the backs of a phalanx rather than using hastati or principes to surround the phalanx. That hard-coded lethality of 1 really racks up the kills quickly, preserving more men in the unfortunate unit facing the front of the phalanx.

To be fair, the units I've destroyed this way were almost all Klerouchikoi Phalangitai, so perhaps the really high end ones (Basilikon Agema, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Argyraspidai, etc.) have enough armor that even javelins from the rear do as little as you claim. But there's always the cavalry charge or surround-with-infantry tactic for those rare cases, if so.

**Charge** · 10-03-2007, 22:46

A single Numidian/Akontistai/Peltast unit won't kill a phalanx, but two will rout it as surely as a cavalry charge

How then I can't route surrounded unit of medium phalanx??? Because of *many stars* general? Funny thing happened yesterday, when battle was almost won, 2 men of hippoakontistai had eager morale while fighting my ~80 peltasts...

No they shouldn't. Consider a very simple case: one layer of plate steel (a simple modern can will do (note that the material is aproximately 0.8mm thick) and shoot an arrow at it with an iron tip. Sure when you are standing very close to your target that won't be much good armour, will it?

But now try again from some 50 metres distance. If you can hit the can, well done: look at it -- it will be bend, but not pierced. Look at your arrow tip: that too will be bend!

Parthian surely can. And so huns,mongols,... english longbowmen have managed this against medieval knights! And you say 50 meters...
And while javelins/archers are underpowered, slingers are extremely overpowered!
Few volleys should be enough to kill 200 unarmoured skirmishers...

**Bootsiuv** · 10-03-2007, 18:19

I think the phalanx missle defense is excessive. I also agree that javelins are too weak. IIRC, most javelins have the same missle damage as arrows. Perhaps there are gameplay reasons for this, such as not wanting overpowered skirmishers.