javelin V phalanx

**Bootsiuv** · 10-03-2007, 18:32

I think a good workaround for overpowered skirmishers would be to give them only 2-3 javelins (IIRC skirmishers have something like 5-10 right now), but increase javelins missle damage by a good margin. That way, just one volley will be fairly devestating, but they won't have the ammo to wipe out entire armies.

**Sarkiss** · 10-03-2007, 19:14

Originally Posted by Bootsiuv

I think a good workaround for overpowered skirmishers would be to give them only 2-3 javelins (IIRC skirmishers have something like 5-10 right now), but increase javelins missle damage by a good margin. That way, just one volley will be fairly devestating, but they won't have the ammo to wipe out entire armies.

but we do not have overpowered javelineers

reducing ammo for skirmishers? hm. iirc infantry have something around 3,4 so skirmishers should definitely have at least twice the amount.
what seems reasonable to me is reducing unit size (is there a reason for them to big so huge? they are only secondary, supportive troops after all) for light skirmishers form 240 to 160 and for heavier types from 160 to 120 leaving current "killing" ratio the way it is. that why you wouldnt scratch your head wandering where all those hundreds of javelins flew.

**Bootsiuv** · 10-03-2007, 19:20

You might have overpowered javelineers if you raised the missle damage for javelins....this is what I meant. Skirmishers are underpowered currently IMO.

**Sarkiss** · 10-03-2007, 19:54

Originally Posted by Bootsiuv

You might have overpowered javelineers if you raised the missle damage for javelins....this is what I meant. Skirmishers are underpowered currently IMO.

i dont think raising missile damage by the smallest margin would make tehm overpowered. either that or reducing number of men (skirmishers) per unit ...
as it is now you dont have to bother to field them at all and can entirly rely on your impenetrable phalanx which is nowhere near to reality. Battle of Lechaeum is a great example of phalanx vulnerability which is forgotten...

**Charge** · 10-03-2007, 20:04

What needs to be done : skirmisher unit size - lower, ammo - lower, attack - higher.
(of course no one will take care of it, as always)

**Watchman** · 10-03-2007, 20:21

Missile lethality is always a round 1, AFAIK. Hardcoded.

Still, IMO as well them javelins are a wee bit underpowered. Not that I particularly miss them vanilla RTW days, but I understand those things did put enough mass and momentum behind a narrow point to be a real source of worry for anyone who wasn't decked out in pretty good defensive gear.

Heck, IIRC the unit description of those axe-swinging Dahae skirmisher cav it specifically says there that the javelin was sometimes preferred over the bow because of its better armour-piercing qualities, even among the archery-crazy nomads... which IIRC the relevant stats manifestly fails to be the case, as the HAs actually had a higher base missile attack on top of way greater range and deeper quivers.

**Charge** · 10-03-2007, 21:15

In EB they have no ap... stupid. Even good bow should have it.

**Digby Tatham Warter** · 10-04-2007, 12:59

Originally Posted by Bootsiuv

You might have overpowered javelineers if you raised the missle damage for javelins....this is what I meant. Skirmishers are underpowered currently IMO.

Except when it comes to shooting at Nellies, where IMO they are far to deadly far to quickly, I prefer the balance in the SPQR mod where Jav's are still the answer but it takes alittle while, enough to perphaps make you sweat a little.

**Bava** · 10-04-2007, 13:45

The low level skirmishers - akonkistai, toxotai etc. - and their damage are about right, imho. They´re able to cause tremendous loses among other poor quality troops but anyone who´s armoured with more than a linen cloth just cant be bothered with them.

As far as my (limited) historical knowledge goes, they never had any significant role in winning a battle if the other side had some of them, too. They were just a nuisance and the prelude to the actual battle.

And medium/elite skirmishers (balearic slingers, thacian peltastai, syrian archers etc.) DO hurt a phalanx from a frontal arc (i´m an avid mak/baktria player and lost tons of men to them at beginning of my EB career

).

just my two cents

**Oleander Ardens** · 10-04-2007, 17:35

It is the big picture which is important here. This means to get historical combat right. Ideas such as to give most javelins ap means that even heavily armored units will get cut down in scores by lowly peletasts. Slingers are already a huge danger with their ap, I suffered quite a bit even against the Roman accensi when they out outflanked one of my Phalangites and started pooring in bullets.

Sadly EB can't finetune the AP attribute like modders could in MTW. Ideal of course would be to be able to tweak both the armor (pierce, blade , blunt) and the missiles potential ap factor. So AP is a watershed attribute, give it to an unit and it will be capable to wreak havoc to armored units with little shielddefense.

IMHO javelins are fine, even if I wonder how many javelins a typical skirmisher on horseback had back than in Greece.

OA