Out of character thread XIV

**econ21** · 10-14-2007, 20:23

Originally Posted by RoadKill

Econ, your going to fight my battle when I seige Budapust right?

Yes, I would be honoured to.

**RoadKill** · 10-14-2007, 20:29

Econ, I want Lorenz bloodied up, let him kill as much enemies as possible, but please please please don't let him die, I already lost 2 generals in a month don't want a third. Also when your done SACK THE PLACE.

**FactionHeir** · 10-14-2007, 20:32

Something interesting at the Citadel
CA hasn't got any patches planned nor in the works for M2TW/Kingdoms.

**TinCow** · 10-14-2007, 20:52

Here is the list of specific unit prices. It is nothing really new, just a direct translation of the generic list I originally posted onto the exact units in the game. This is not meant to represent in-game prices at all and is more designed with players' abilities in mind. For instance, ranged units cost more than equivalent infantry because humans are far better at using them than the AI. You can thank FactionHeir for the crazy high prices on mounted units.

Pasted for ease of reference:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Privateerkev** · 10-14-2007, 21:22

Alright, first off, the official cataclysm thread is awesome. Hats off to TC for what seemed to be a lot of work.

Second, I have a question on Kaiser Economics (Kaisernomics?)

It seems the Kaiser gets 1 for each Imperial province that's attached to the Kaiser's location and not under siege. But it lists Vilinius and Acre. I have a couple of questions about this.

1.) Vilinius was never incorporated. If we are claiming that un-incorporated provinces are Imperial, then Vilinius, Constantinople, and Durazzo would all count. But, none have an uninterrupted path to the Kaiser's location so none would give him money.

2.) Acre is listed as the Kaiser's but Acre is Swabian and Outremer's. Once the Elberhard left his house, he left Swabia. Therefore, Acre is Jan's since it is enshrined in the Outremer charter.

3.) Antioch however, is Imperial. And it is in the Charter. So, does it give 1 to Jan and 1 to Elberhard?

This is in no way an attempt IC or OOC to deny the Kaiser money. It's just that I am a micro-managing, anal-retentive, number-cruncher and I like to keep track of these things.

Also, to clarify, do King/Dukes get 1 point for every territory under their control, with uninterrupted path to the avatar, and not under-siege, regardless of if it is a castle or city? And then an extra point if their territory has a loyal count?

So, Jan would have:

Antioch, Aleppo, and Acre. None have counts because Bresch (Aleppo) is in Europe and loses the crusader count status and Elberhard (Acre) became Kaiser and can't be a crusader count, and Antioch never has a count. So, that is 3. But Acre and Aleppo are besieged so that is -2. So, Jan has 1 like what is listed in the Official Cataclysm Thread (OCT) but it gets there differently. It does not give Jan Acre.

So, the Kaiser would have:

Vilinius, Constantinople, Durazzo, and joint control of Antioch with the King. This would be 4. But Vilinius, Constantinople, and Durrazo are all far and out of communication with the Kaiser so that is -3. So, the Kaiser would get 1 from Antioch. Again, this is the number that is listed in the OCT but it gets there differently. It gives Elberhard Acre when it is really Jan's and it does not account for Elberhard getting a point from Antioch when it is really Imperial and Jan's.

Furthermore, are we starting the time where re-captured territories will not automatically go back to their houses? Didn't we say that houses could keep what they re-capture during the cataclysm but the Kaiser can re-allocate at the next Diet to reward/punish?

How am I doing so far?

**FactionHeir** · 10-14-2007, 21:28

Castles do not give points, so the Acre point is moot until you convert it.

As King, you'd get bonus point if you got CCs. Emperors don't get bonus points I don't think. They get that +4 bonus TC mentioned.

**Privateerkev** · 10-14-2007, 21:30

~~Dukes have been given one point for every settlement regardless of castle/city status. Look at Arnold's, Lothar's, and Ansehelm's profiles in the OCT.~~

nm, this has been figured out.

**FactionHeir** · 10-14-2007, 21:34

Well, Hans only has a point for Bern but not Staufen.

**TinCow** · 10-14-2007, 21:36

Good catch, I missed that Antioch was Imperial, I was thinking it just belonged to Jan because it wasn't listed in the Chancellor's thread as Imperial. It has been corrected and Elberhard now has an extra +1 from Antioch. Acre is listed as Elberhard's because he is listed as the governor in the Chancellor's thread. Let me know if that is wrong.

Castles generate no income for anyone, not even Dukes, unless they are a rebel capital or there are some other unique circumstances. (See Lothar's financials - Please note that I tried to give each Duke an advantage of some sort. Ansehelm is rich so he doesn't need a bonus. Arnold is pretty rich too, so his 'bonus' is more for flavor and amusement. Lothar is moderately profitable, but is likely to lose a lot of territory quickly and thus the generic +1 to compensate (Plus the description of Deep Pockets indicates the result). Hans has the least of any Duke, but he has easily the best 'bonus' in the entire game to compensate.)

Vilnius was included simply as a note to myself. I consider it cut-off from pretty much everyone and hopefully it will fall to someone soon. It should've been disposed of several turns ago, but the AI has been annoying. Try to pretend it doesn't exist. Constantinople belongs only to Tancred because he captured it. I don't expect him to hang around though, so it will belong to no one next turn, even if the AI doesn't take it. Durazzo belongs to no one because it is rebel, not HRE.

For the next 10 turns, people who capture settlements control them. What happens to them afterwards will be up to the Diet, not me.

**RoadKill** · 10-14-2007, 21:46

I think we should make a new IC thread for characters to discuss in, maybe a Imperial Mail Room, where letters can be sent in to be announced to the Reich, instead of the player sending a pm to everyone.

**Privateerkev** · 10-14-2007, 21:57

TC, from what you have told me, I looked into it.

Ansehelm: looks ok

Hans: looks ok

Lothar: looks ok

Arnold: looks like he has 1 extra he shouldn't have. Ragusa is a castle. He should have 3 for cities, 2 for counts, and 1 for gambling. Which is 6 instead of 7.

Kaiser: Should not have Acre. Elberhard lost Acre when he became Kaiser. A Kaiser can not be a count/crusader count. The Chancellor thread was never updated regarding that.

Jan: Should have Acre. Dukes/King get what is theirs in the beginning. Acre is in the Charter therefore it is Outremer's. Therefore, it is Jan's. It doesn't give money because it is a castle but it is the principle of the matter. ^_^

**TinCow** · 10-14-2007, 22:16

Arnold, Elberhard, and Jan fixed. Removed Vilnius altogether to avoid future confusions.

**Privateerkev** · 10-14-2007, 22:27

woot. thnx.

**RoadKill** · 10-14-2007, 23:18

I had an error before that stated my disc can't be read, or I have the wrong disc in. While the disc was being runned in the hard-drive it would make a "Rrring" sound. I found out that there was a big fat scratch on it, but I doubt it was the problem. I finally got the damn game to uninstall and when I reinstall this thing popped up.

Feature Transfer Error
Feature: Packs
File: D:\main\packs\data_0.pack
Error: Data Error (Cyclic Redundancy Check)

I want to play KOTR so help me out, since all the other forums are ignoring me.

**Dutch_guy** · 10-14-2007, 23:22

I'm loving the fact I'm the richest avatar at the moment. Quite irritating only being able to spend it on militia, oh well

RoadKill

Try using this little program, and see if it manages to recover that File which keeps stalling your install.

**econ21** · 10-14-2007, 23:29

Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

I'm loving the fact I'm the richest avatar at the moment. Quite irritating only being able to spend it on militia, oh well

I think you could exchange it with a player who has a castle. For example, IIRC, Dieter Bresch has Magdeberg but no income. Sounds like a possibility for a mutually beneficial exchange.

**FactionHeir** · 10-14-2007, 23:29

I don't know the solution to the problem by heart, but I know for sure that there were people who had it before and got it fixed.

Check the Citadel and the Apothecary.

**RoadKill** · 10-14-2007, 23:33

Thanks Dutch_Guy, I ran the program and it seems that I have 5 things wrong with the CD, the data_0.pack, data_1.pack, data_2.pack data_3.pack, data_4.pack and localized.pack

I think the scratch on the disc ruined those files, maybe not, but factionheir, there are a gajillion posts, It'll be impossible to find it.

**FactionHeir** · 10-14-2007, 23:36

Hmm well if those files are noted as corrupt on your CD, then you probably will either have to remove a layer or get a replacement.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how that program reacts to .pack files. Defrag for instance doesn't like iso and mdf files, so if only pack files are affected, this might be suspect.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 10-14-2007, 23:38

FH, I keep getting error messages when trying to update to 1.29. The archive is either in unknown format or damaged.

-edit- Nevermind, re-downloaded it and it's fine.

**FactionHeir** · 10-14-2007, 23:43

Odd. It works fine here. Is it a CRC error?
If so, try redownloading (with and without a dl manager).

If it still won't work, I'll upload a second copy to make sure.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 10-14-2007, 23:43

Heh, check the edit.

**RoadKill** · 10-14-2007, 23:44

Aww.. this sucks, it means I'll never be able to play MTW 2 again

. I'm not gonna go buy another copy and I don't think I can get a replacment for it from EB games.

**TinCow** · 10-14-2007, 23:53

If it is just a deep scratch, you can use various household products to remove it. Usually very mild abrasives. I have successfully removed scratches that made an otherwise unplayable game CD work fine with Soft Scrub. I'm sure you can find a list of other stuff that would work with google.

**RoadKill** · 10-15-2007, 00:20

Well, I checked out some remedies on google, and I found an intresting one with toothpaste, of course I tested it out on a scratched disc I didn't need anymore, and I did what the guy said and magically 80% of the scratches dissapeared! I tried it on my MTW2 disc, unfortunatly didn't work, but my disc smells like mints, and its all buffed up shiny and all the tinier scratches are gone, but not the big one.

**econ21** · 10-15-2007, 00:35

Originally Posted by TinCow

Here is the list of specific unit prices...

I guess Teutonic Knights cost 5 points? Statistically, they seem a match for Gothics and a clear step up from Imperials.

**TinCow** · 10-15-2007, 01:16

Originally Posted by RoadKill

Well, I checked out some remedies on google, and I found an intresting one with toothpaste, of course I tested it out on a scratched disc I didn't need anymore, and I did what the guy said and magically 80% of the scratches dissapeared! I tried it on my MTW2 disc, unfortunatly didn't work, but my disc smells like mints, and its all buffed up shiny and all the tinier scratches are gone, but not the big one.

If it's a deep scratch, it will simply take a while to abrade it away. Just keep rubbing until it's gone. The finer the abrasive (toothpaste is very fine) the longer it will take, but the better the end result.

Originally Posted by econ21

I guess Teutonic Knights cost 5 points? Statistically, they seem a match for Gothics and a clear step up from Imperials.

Yep, adding them to the list now. People with low piety will also have problems recruiting them.

**econ21** · 10-15-2007, 01:24

An important potential source of revenue during the cataclysm is likely to be taking enemy settlements and ransoming prisoners. I could not see these events covered explicitly in the cataclysm rules. (Perhaps the settlement capture effect is aleady captured by the city income and the rule for scrapping buildings - although that would remove a lot of the trade-off between sacking, exterminating and occupying.)

What I was wondering was an exchange rate of 1500 florins = 1 recruitment point.

The rationale is that a basic spear militia costs 1 recruitment point. In the game, it costs 310 to recruit and 1250 in upkeep for the 10 turns of the cataclysm. So that's about 1500 florins (let's deal in round numbers).

Sacking can be pretty lucrative - Stetting yielded 20k, IIRC. So on the above exchange rate, that would translate into about 13 points or 4-5 decent units. I was a lot more generous to Fritz, but that was partly because I wanted to create enough units to outfit three players. 13 points is still more than most of us will get as fixed income throughout the cataclysm.

The exchange rate could be made less favourable for taking settlements, as cities will give 1 point per turn and scrapping buildings would also bring in a lot of cash.

I don't think ransoming gives you a lot of florins, unless you bag a Prince or King, but we could round up. Allowing a point or two seems reasonable. It will also help maintain the game's nice trade off between getting chivalry/dread points and getting cash.

**gibsonsg91921** · 10-15-2007, 01:58

Hey guys, I know that a lot of you may be too busy to join another PBM, but for those who aren't and have Kingdoms, I'm going to start a Teutonic Order PBM, so hit up the sign-up thread and reserve your avatar.

**StoneCold** · 10-15-2007, 02:16

TC, I think you need to move Edmund Becker back to from the mausoleum to the library. :P

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