Multiplayer game discussion

[R'as al Ghul]

unit vs unit....men remaining when the second unit routs:

WM vs YA.....56 vs 44 in 6 sec
WM vs YS.....52 vs 15 in 30 sec
WM vs ND.....50 vs 10 in 24 sec
WM vs NI......41 vs 19 in 73 sec

Yuuki,

do you have similar stats for other unit matchups?
I'm asking because I'd like to get a better feeling for how long certain units can hold and how much time I have to bring another unit to the flank or rear.

R'as

[Nikodil]

Hmm, anyone tried to calculate these kind of battle values?
I.e. given unit X vs unit Y:
- what's the expected kill ratio X / Y at time T
This theoretical value would disregard morale effects but still would be useful for balancing and army building.

[CBR]

Hmm, anyone tried to calculate these kind of battle values?
I.e. given unit X vs unit Y:
- what's the expected kill ratio X / Y at time T
This theoretical value would disregard morale effects but still would be useful for balancing and army building.

Dont think any of us have focused too much on actual time to defeat units. But one can simply add attack and defense and the combined number represents the overall combat power of a unit. Then there is charge value with a rule of thumb of 4-5 in charge equals 1 extra in attack. Each point in difference multiplies the kills with 1.2

If we just look at the basic attack+defense stat for infantry units we get the following:

Teppo -11
YA -2
SA +0
YS +2
ND +3
NI +6
WM +7

If we forget about a winning units beginning to outnumber the losing unit and getting more and more 2 or 3 on 1 duels we can get some basic idea about how much stronger a unit is by using: 1.2^difference

Example: WM v YA would be 1.2^9=5.15 which means that around 5 YA are killed for every WM killed.

Now as you can see the ND only has one extra point over YS but they do have a charge of 8 which would be worth around 1.5 to 2 extra points. That just shows how important it is to charge properly with ND to really gain an advantage of YS.

edit: and then remember the effects of fatigue:

quite tired -2
very tired -4
exhausted -6
totally exhausted -9

It doesnt take much to offset the balance between the different units.


CBR

[Noir]

Just an observation:

lately it seems that... automn came upon SamuraiWarsLand as we get rain even in games that we do not wish so apparently - could it be because of the default host setting being Spring? Spring gives showers often enough IIRC. I guess when there is a desire to play a more "guaranteed" rain free game, hosts can choose summer for more... reliable results

Noir

[Tomisama]

Monday night reviews of my worst battles for this Sunday, not counting the Onin disasters (for me) which can be talked about later over on that topic.


CB, you ask what I was doing after that mizulands 18 game, referring to my total left flank positions destruction. I could not answer at the time, being to distraught. “Suicide” was the only thing that came to my mind, and I couldn’t spell it right, so took a walk.

If and when you watch the replay, please note that in the battle I could not see the five units on Fool’s hill, as they were hidden. I somehow counted wrong and thought there were only two. My YC attempt to test flush the area got caught, and the whole thing went off in a hand-basket after that. My apologies


And Yuuki, later after the mizulands 10 game, you said that you had helped me as much as you could with that flanking operation, and this was true, thank you. I think if I would have seen your attack and had pushed at the same time, things might have worked out differently, but I was a bit to far out on a limb there anyway, and should have been more conservtive. My apologies again

[Puzz3D]

Monday night reviews of my worst battles for this Sunday, not counting the Onin disasters (for me) which can be talked about later over on that topic.

It wasn't my intention to rush you in that huge unit 3v3 with no guns, but you moved to occupy the small hills in front of me. If I let you occupy them, I would then have to attack uphill. So, I move forward quickly to deny you that terrain. I did inform my allies that I was doing this as our preliminary plan was to attack on the other flank.

CB, you ask what I was doing after that mizulands 18 game, referring to my total left flank positions destruction. I could not answer at the time, being to distraught. “Suicide” was the only thing that came to my mind, and I couldn’t spell it right, so took a walk.

I wasn't able to assist you in the flank move because I only had 2 YC for cavalry. I often only take 2 cav, and am reluctant to commit them to a flank move since I need them to protect the teppo units.

If and when you watch the replay, please note that in the battle I could not see the five units on Fool’s hill, as they were hidden. I somehow counted wrong and thought there were only two. My YC attempt to test flush the area got caught, and the whole thing went off in a hand-basket after that. My apologies

My thought on this is that it might be better to accept the loss of the cav unit, and not throw more units into a situation where they have to move away from allied support.

And Yuuki, later after the mizulands 10 game, you said that you had helped me as much as you could with that flanking operation, and this was true, thank you. I think if I would have seen your attack and had pushed at the same time, things might have worked out differently, but I was a bit to far out on a limb there anyway, and should have been more conservtive. My apologies again

My fault for the lack of coordination because I didn't tell you I was attacking. I misinterpreted your move forward with your WM and YS as the initialization of a full scale attack. I thought the strategic move to double one of the two separated enemy armies was a good idea. The attack has to be made before the enemy armies combine forces if there is to be any advantage for the attacking forces.

[TosaInu]

It wasn't my intention to rush you in that huge unit 3v3 with no guns, but you moved to occupy the small hills in front of me. If I let you occupy them, I would then have to attack uphill. So, I move forward quickly to deny you that terrain. I did inform my allies that I was doing this as our preliminary plan was to attack on the other flank.

Yes.

My fault for the lack of coordination because I didn't tell you I was attacking. I misinterpreted your move forward with your WM and YS as the initialization of a full scale attack. I thought the strategic move to double one of the two separated enemy armies was a good idea. The attack has to be made before the enemy armies combine forces if there is to be any advantage for the attacking forces.

That's my chaos.

I intended to stay where I was, then decided to move away to join Asanorin and did so, noticed he was already moving towards me and partly arrived, moved back and then provoked too much and forced Yuuki into attack. Sorry.

It disrupted synchronisation, but as we were more compact/better overview and had the high ground, Asanorin could keep doing the right things.

[CBR]

Monday night reviews of my worst battles for this Sunday, not counting the Onin disasters (for me) which can be talked about later over on that topic.

Dont be too hard on yourself. Remember you did have a victory too last Sunday

I happened to be watching your cavalry charging into the trees and killing some guns(?) but they kept on moving further although enemy spears and cavalry came in for a counter attack. Were you busy looking somewhere else?


CBR

[Tomisama]

Dont be too hard on yourself. Remember you did have a victory too last Sunday

I happened to be watching your cavalry charging into the trees and killing some guns(?) but they kept on moving further although enemy spears and cavalry came in for a counter attack. Were you busy looking somewhere else?


CBR

That may have been the point when I was starting to send a team message stating that "I may have a way-in on this flank", comming over the hill to hit his visable fromation from behind. But before I could type it, and as I was held out by message mode, the unit locked into combat and I could not get them back

I should have known better, Fool is too good a player to be open to an attack like that. And I should have counted units to be sure that I had all of them in view. I remember taking a second look, but I didn't count them

Worse than that, I then played the gamblers addiction game of trying to win back losses, by investing more. This never works

[Puzz3D]

do you have similar stats for other unit matchups?
I'm asking because I'd like to get a better feeling for how long certain units can hold and how much time I have to bring another unit to the flank or rear.

Krypta and I did some tests on STW and Sam Wars back in March 2005. We matched a WM vs NI in hold formation to check length of fight and margin of victory in a head to head fight.

In STW, the WM beat the NI in 1 minute and 22 seconds. The WM had 37 men left, and the NI routed at 12 men.

In SW, the WM beat the NI in 1 minute and 13 seconds. The WM had 41 men left, and the NI routed at 19 men.

To check the flanking we matched two YS vs one WM. The YS are side by side and the WM attacks one which is in hold formation while the other YS, in engage at will, moves forward and makes a couple of turns to flank from behind. The timing starts when the WM makes contact with the blocking YS.

In STW, the two YS beat the WM in about 20 seconds. The blocking YS had 38 men left, and the flanking YS had 49 men left. The WM routed at 24 men.

In SW, the two YS beat the WM in 55 seconds. The blocking YS had 27 men left and the flanking YS had 33 men left. The WM routed at 9 men. It took 20 seconds for the flanking YS to make the maneuver and contact the rear of the WM. In STW, the WM has already been defeated 20 seconds after contact with the blocking YS.

We also tested two no-dachi vs one WM, and two WM vs one HC. In both cases the double unit won easily, but they win faster in STW and by a larger margin than in Sam Wars. This might be due to the faster turning rate of the men in STW which appears to be quite a bit faster than the turning rate in Sam Wars. We don't have any control over the turning rate in Sam Wars.

Two units of the same type do win in Sam Wars as they do in STW, but it took longer to make the turning maneuvers and longer to defeat the flanked unit after contact in SW. However, we can see from WM vs NI tests that the kill rate is about the same for STW and SW, and the front/back ratio of survivors in the YS test is the same at about 80% for STW and SW. The WM did fight down to 9 men in SW, but only 24 men in STW. That may be why it took longer to resolve the combat in the SW test after both YS were in contact with the WM.


Note: The WM vs NI result I posted previously in this thread is for NI in hold formation. I'll have to repeat that test for NI in engage-at-will.