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Thread: "Just a Piece of Paper"

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Ah, restraining orders - totally useless in emergencies. But that and changing your cell phone number is apparently how you're supposed to deal with death threats.

    Calling 911 is just going to let the police know where to find the bodies:
    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...778062.mp3file

    A great argument for waiting periods too - we've got to make sure those threatened 'cool down' for a week before they can buy a gun to defend themselves.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...421,full.story
    2 students shot dead had sought cops' help

    Walter Pacheco | Sentinel Staff Writer
    September 27, 2007

    Roughly three hours before they died, Tiffany Barwick and Michael Ruschak asked Seminole County deputy sheriffs for protection from the man they feared would kill them.

    Andrew Allred, Barwick's former boyfriend, had raided her bank account, tampered with her MySpace page and sent phony messages to her family and friends, she told deputies. He e-mailed Ruschak saying, "The next time I see you, I'm going to kill you," and sent Barwick an image of herself covered with bullet holes, a report of the meeting states.

    A deputy replied that he could do nothing at that time.

    Later on Monday night, Allred plowed into Barwick's car outside Ruschak's home in Oviedo, broke in and shot him dead. He then walked into the bathroom, where Barwick was hiding, and shot her, according to the arrest report. (Hear new audio of the 911 calls made from the home.)

    Another man who tried to wrestle the gun from Allred was shot in the leg.

    Sheriff's officials defended the agency's handling of the plea for help, recounted in a four-page report released Wednesday. The deputy who responded to Barwick and Ruschak's complaints did "the best he could," Chief Deputy Steven Harriett said.

    "The deputy and everyone in this department truly regrets that these two young people lost their lives in this way, but the deputy had to deal with the information available at the time," Harriett said. "He made a decision he thought was the most appropriate."

    Carol Wick, chief executive officer of Harbor House, an organization that offers shelter to victims of domestic violence, said the case should make the Sheriff's Office reconsider its procedures. What happened, she said, "It's just tragic."

    Allred, 21, is being held without bail at John Polk Correctional Facility in Sanford, where he faces two counts of homicide, attempted homicide and armed burglary in the shootings on Shady Oak Lane.

    Acquaintances said he was bitter about his breakup with Barwick, a student at Seminole Community College, and directed his anger at her and Ruschak, a student at the University of Central Florida. The three had been friends, according to these accounts, until Barwick ended her relationship with Allred in August.

    Sheriff's records show that Barwick, 19, first called deputies at 11:30 a.m. Monday alleging that Allred had tapped into her Bank of America account and withdrawn money without her permission.

    At 7:09 p.m. she told another deputy that Allred just sent Ruschak, 22, a message threatening his life and that he had recently purchased a gun. She pleaded with the deputy to "lock him [Allred] up."

    Seminole Deputy Peter Sean Brewer, who met with Barwick and Ruschak, wrote in his report that "Allred's actions did not meet the necessary elements for a charge of assault. and as such, I could not arrest him for making those threats."

    He said the law required him to observe harassing communications to make an arrest, but that he would forward her complaint and other materials to the State Attorney's Office for consideration of possible charges.

    He advised her to seek a protective court order against Allred and to keep records of any e-mails, text messages and voice messages from him. Other suggestions included changing her cell-phone number and calling 911 if she saw Allred's vehicle.

    Investigators said gunfire broke out about 10:30 p.m. during a party at Ruschak's home. Oviedo police later arrested Allred at the home he shares with his family in Oviedo. Officers said he confessed to the crimes and asked them about the condition of "the ones that were shot," according to the arrest report.

    He told officers he went to the house to ram his girlfriend's car but shot his way through a sliding glass door when he could not enter the front door. Authorities recovered the handgun they think he used.

    Oviedo Lt. Dennis Lynch said homicide investigators are reviewing 911 calls made from the house on the night of the shooting.

    Friends and family had mixed reactions on the events that led to Monday's shooting.

    "My opinion is that if you get a restraining order, it is just a piece of paper," said Ruschak's mother, Janice. "I know police are doing their best, and I don't want to blame them."

    Even if Barwick had sought a protective order against Allred, the forms must be filed at the Seminole County Courthouse, then sent to a judge and finally the Sheriff's Office.

    Court officials said the process could take a day or two.

    Wick said she doubted it would have helped.

    "Allred would not have been served the order in time and, even if he was, who knows if that would have stopped him?" Wick said. "Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it."

    Two Seminole County crime-scene technicians continued working Wednesday at the duplex where the shootings took place, gathering evidence.

    Barwick's white Chevrolet Cavalier, its back caved in, sat about 15 feet from the front door. Still in the driveway was Ruschak's car, an old police cruiser, a black Ford Crown Victoria with a search light attached to the driver's side.

    Phone messages left Wednesday with Allred's mother were not immediately returned. A neighbor described Allred as "a very smart kid" who was a computer whiz. Others also commented on his technological skill, but expressed shock at the charges against him.

    "He is a very intelligent man. Never in a million years would I have suspected this," said Daniel Morman, a UCF student who spent time watching movies, drinking beer and building bonfires at Allred's rural home. "He didn't appear to have that in him. I guess you always hope your friends are good people."

    But former UCF student Erinn Redd, who knew Allred and Ruschak since their days at Oviedo High School, remembered Allred as "deviously clever and capable of taking matters to the extreme."

    He had threatened other friends in the past, she said. "But we never expected him to go murder someone."
    Now this isn't a screed against the police, but against the idea that restraining orders and calling 911 will save you.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Hmm. Well, if we had absolute gun control, then Allred wouldn't have been able to shoot them, now would he?

    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    If by absolute then you mean the guns in America magically vanishing completely, then he couldn't have shot them. He could have just used a machete or something similar.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    he could also have used his bare fists and beaten them to death if he was strong enough...

    but the point is that Man with gun more dangerous than -> Man with Machete -> Man with bare hands..
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    No, you're completely missing the point; passively relying on the police is not a good idea.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    No, you're completely missing the point; passively relying on the police is not a good idea.

    CR
    No, that's the point of the story YOU want to push. Depending on what a person's viewpoint is, there can be many different points to be made.
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Like that if regular folks need to start worrying about other regular folks coming to kill them without the cops lifting a finger, insufficient availability of personal firearms is probably among the lesser worries of the society in question.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    So he had a history of threatning people but they couldn't stop him from buying a gun because buying a gun is his right until he does something like kill someone upon which he forfiets the right to buy a gun .
    Is that what you are trying to say Rabbit ?

    Or is it that if more people could take guns to parties there would be less shooting when there was a domestic that gets out of hand ?


    A great argument for waiting periods too - we've got to make sure those threatened 'cool down' for a week before they can buy a gun to defend themselves.
    Or is it that everyone should be able to buy a gun instantly if ever they feel threatened in any way and then claim self-defense ?

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    No, you're completely missing the point; passively relying on the police is not a good idea.

    CR
    No..the point is that having an in-effectual police force is not a good idea.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Extremely anti-weapon "Gun control" does nothing but make it harder for normal people to legally exercise their 2nd amendment rights, period. Criminals who want to obtain weapons will always be able to do so with a relative degree of ease no matter what the law.

    "Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
    that which is his due."
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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Free guns for everyone!!!
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
    Free guns for everyone!!!
    That'll make psycotic former boyfriends think twice.

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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    That'll make psycotic former boyfriends think twice.
    No thats schizos that think twice

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    No, you're completely missing the point; passively relying on the police is not a good idea.
    That's what is known as a civilized society.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    That's what is known as a civilized society.
    I don't believe this. I'm not exactly in full agreement with CR, but are you saying that you agree with how the police handled this situation?
    Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Yup. Banning guns is the answer. Thankyou CR for repeatedly bring this to our attention. Without doubt, you are one of the best advocates for gun control.

    Sir, I salute you.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax
    I don't believe this. I'm not exactly in full agreement with CR, but are you saying that you agree with how the police handled this situation?
    No, he just said that in a civilized society, people rely on the police to uphold the law and protect them, they don't take it into their own hands. That doesn't mean that he thinks the police handled this correctly, though.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey
    No, he just said that in a civilized society, people rely on the police to uphold the law and protect them, they don't take it into their own hands. That doesn't mean that he thinks the police handled this correctly, though.
    Yup.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker
    Extremely anti-weapon "Gun control" does nothing but make it harder for normal people to legally exercise their 2nd amendment rights, period. Criminals who want to obtain weapons will always be able to do so with a relative degree of ease no matter what the law.
    How come it's quite hard for criminals to get guns where there is strict gun control then? Why is it that the criminals here are usually armed with knives?

    And why is it that our murder rate is lower?
    Last edited by HoreTore; 09-29-2007 at 22:56.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Post Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    *talking from a "what if"


    Maybe if there was a gun ban there would be shady bissinusses that would continue to sell them,thus making large amounts of money, and with that money could bribe and create a small personal army of thugs to protect themselves, something like the drug cartels in columbia only now gun...cartels.....

    end of "what if" scenario

    theres no way to ever take guns completely off the streets, even if there was a ban criminal would resort to other methods, such as small explosives (an incident in Miami in the mid 90's a hitman used this), strangulation, knives.

    guns are just the obviouse choice to kill, after that there will be other ways.

  21. #21
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Tribesman is apparently having trouble reading, because the reason the deputy wouldn't arrest the homicidal ex-boyfriend was because there wasn't a history of threatening behavior:
    Quote Originally Posted by The story
    At 7:09 p.m. she told another deputy that Allred just sent Ruschak, 22, a message threatening his life and that he had recently purchased a gun. She pleaded with the deputy to "lock him [Allred] up."

    Seminole Deputy Peter Sean Brewer, who met with Barwick and Ruschak, wrote in his report that "Allred's actions did not meet the necessary elements for a charge of assault. and as such, I could not arrest him for making those threats."
    Even so, I agree with him, Hore Tore and others.

    When a homicidial maniac breaks into your house, the only civilized response is to simply call 911 and tell them how to dispose of your remains. Civilized people just let the criminals do what they want. Protecting yourself or your family... that's just so... uncivilized. Just shut up and die, like you're supposed to.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 09-29-2007 at 23:42.
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    How come it's quite hard for criminals to get guns where there is strict gun control then? Why is it that the criminals here are usually armed with knives?

    And why is it that our murder rate is lower?
    There are millions of guns already in America and we have huge borders.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    That's what is known as a civilized society.
    That would be a robot society. If you were convinced that someone was going to kill you, would you just sit back and rely on the police? I would have bought a gun for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    No..the point is that having an in-effectual police force is not a good idea.
    The police can't do anything in this situation. Lots of people mistakenly think that someone is going to try and kill them, the police can't act as bodyguards in that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by greaterkhaan
    No, that's the point of the story YOU want to push. Depending on what a person's viewpoint is, there can be many different points to be made.
    That was the point of the story. The police can't protect you in this situation. The only thing to disagree about is whether it is safer to get a gun yourself or to outlaw guns.

    If I had a choice between a knife fight and a gun fight with someone breaking into my house, I'd choose the gun fight hands down. In a knife fight you'll probably both die.

  23. #23
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    That would be a robot society. If you were convinced that someone was going to kill you, would you just sit back and rely on the police? I would have bought a gun for sure.
    In a civilized society, you're confident that the police will stop whoever is trying to kill you, so whether you should get a gun or not is not a question.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  24. #24
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by K COSSACK
    *talking from a "what if"


    Maybe if there was a gun ban there would be shady bissinusses that would continue to sell them,thus making large amounts of money, and with that money could bribe and create a small personal army of thugs to protect themselves, something like the drug cartels in columbia only now gun...cartels.....

    end of "what if" scenario
    That's no "what if"-scenario, that's called mafia and cartels, something you have more than enough of already.

    While we are lacking them...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    That's no "what if"-scenario, that's called mafia and cartels, something you have more than enough of already.

    While we are lacking them...
    and there will be more....if there is a good demand there will be a supply.

  26. #26
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    In a civilized society, you're confident that the police will stop whoever is trying to kill you, so whether you should get a gun or not is not a question.
    In a perfect world, I'm sure that this is true. Reality isn't even close to what you are suggesting though.

    How come it's quite hard for criminals to get guns where there is strict gun control then? Why is it that the criminals here are usually armed with knives?
    Because you're wrong, it is incredibly easy? Kinda like how Washington DC has some of the harshest gun laws in the nation, and it's also got one of the worst crime rates in terms of gun-related crime?

    And why is it that our murder rate is lower?
    Because you're a fraction of the size of the US?


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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    In a civilized society, you're confident that the police will stop whoever is trying to kill you, so whether you should get a gun or not is not a question.
    This is a 'civilized society', it's just the nuts that screw everything up. (no, go ahead, sig. it)
    I am confident that the police will stop someone, but we are all robots humans. We have emotions, like Minority Report. Some people decide to kill someone, set it up, and do it. Others are enraged by passions and emotions, and kill someone. She could have easily been hit by the ex, driving an SUV as she left her house.
    [sarcasm]
    Even better point. If we didn't have cars, then he couldn't have gotten to her house/apartment so quickly. Lets take away the dangerous and speedy cars. But then he would have used a machete, so lets take that away. Then you have rocks, and we can't let him use a rock, so we have to cut those out too.
    Heck, If she hadn't dated him, then he wouldn't be mad. So lets make dating illegal!
    [/sarcasm]

    I hope that guns can be rendered unnecessary, and we can live with bunnies and flower. Until that day, however, people will find ways to kill people.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

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    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  28. #28
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    not quite true - there were more murders in LA alone last year than in the entire of England and Wales - theres far more people in England and Wales than in LA - and we are one of the more violent European peoples...

    either we are doing something right law wise or we just arnt as prone to violence in general...

    Edit

    seems my numbers were slightly out (i misread an article)

    There were more murders in the state of California than in the entire of england and wales (CA pop is 36 million England and Wales 53 million)

    see

    England and Wales

    and

    CA
    Last edited by Sir Moody; 09-30-2007 at 01:33.

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    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    In a civilized society, you're confident that the police will stop whoever is trying to kill you, so whether you should get a gun or not is not a question.
    A society with a murder rate of zero, then? Where would that be, perchance?
    Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.

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  30. #30

    Default Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"

    Tribesman is apparently having trouble reading,
    Don..read the friggng article, it might help you in relation to what was written
    You should be able to do better Don

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