Russian Democracy

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Recent Election Results in Russia -- thoughts?

Comments from those more local -- our East of the Elbe crowd -- especially appreciated.

[Ice]

Recent Election Results in Russia -- thoughts?

What is this democracy you speak of?

[woad&fangs]

What is this democracy you speak of?

Angry Putin:24%
Corrupt Putin:52%
Assassin Putin:5%
Quarrelsome Putin:19%

[ICantSpellDawg]

Russian democracy is clearly dead

[Papewaio]

Not dead, its still quite reactive... radioactive that is.

[Charge]

[rvg]

Russian democracy has been dead for a few years now. Putin, while being hugely popular with his people (even now) is an autocrat and a tyrant even though he is very smart about asserting his autocratic rule. Sadly, he's the best that Russia currently has to offer: better have it under tyranny than under anarchy.

[Blodrast]

I'd be curious to understand a somewhat different thing, too (apologies to Seamus for being somewhat offtopic, but I think the two issues are related). Why is it that there are so many Russians who agree that Putin is a strongman, but at the same time wholeheartedly support him ? In other words, why do people feel that Russia _needs_ an iron-fisted leader?

Is it some nostalgia about regaining the superpower status that the USSR had ? (I find this difficult to believe, I can't imagine regular folk getting a kick out of being "#1"... it will hardly make a practical difference to them anyway)

Is it fear of anarchy ? (If so, is this really justified ? Why would Russia be more prone to anarchy than any other country ?)

Is it fear of other, existing or upcoming, powers, such as the US, China, India ?

I'd like to understand how people think.

Once again, Seamus, hope you don't mind too much for derailing the topic, but, as I said, it's not completely unrelated.

[rvg]

I'd be curious to understand a somewhat different thing, too (apologies to Seamus for being somewhat offtopic, but I think the two issues are related). Why is it that there are so many Russians who agree that Putin is a strongman, but at the same time wholeheartedly support him ? In other words, why do people feel that Russia _needs_ an iron-fisted leader?

Is it some nostalgia about regaining the superpower status that the USSR had ? (I find this difficult to believe, I can't imagine regular folk getting a kick out of being "#1"... it will hardly make a practical difference to them anyway)

Is it fear of anarchy ? (If so, is this really justified ? Why would Russia be more prone to anarchy than any other country ?)

Yes. Russia throughout its history has been either under tyranny or under anarchy. It has never been truly free, although the USSR in its last couple of years and RUssia in the 90s had some semblance of freedom and democracy mixed together with plenty of anarchy and tremendous economic hardships.

Is it fear of other, existing or upcoming, powers, such as the US, China, India ?

Not those as much as the West. Once again, Russia throughout its long history has always perceived the West as its enemy. It is somewhat justified, as most threats to Russia over the past 1000 years came from the west (except the mongols of course). So, they see the Democracy (as *we* understand it) as a western trojan horse, as a plot to undermine Russia from within. Thus, they do not trust democracy and prefer the much more familiar tyranny.

Finally, Russian economy is booming. People start caring less about freedom when they are too busy stuffing their pockets with the cash windfall from the oil trade.

That is my take on it.

[Blodrast]

Thank you for your answer, rvg, I'll chew on that for a while.

[Papewaio]

Finally, Russian economy is booming. People start caring less about freedom when they are too busy stuffing their pockets with the cash windfall from the oil trade.

It worked in ancient Rome where the tyrants ruled as long as bread and circuses were supplied. Heck you could argue France fell because it ran out of cakes er bread.

Most of the Western forms of democracy don't get as thoroughly examined as they should because we are now distracted with fast food and TV.

[Boyar Son]

It worked in ancient Rome where the tyrants ruled as long as bread and circuses were supplied. Heck you could argue France fell because it ran out of cakes er bread.

Most of the Western forms of democracy don't get as thoroughly examined as they should because we are now distracted with fast food and TV.

sure it is: media.

[Papewaio]

The media is not a neutral source of information. It is a commercial enterprise that makes money through advertising and hence needs you to watch. That requirement means that they have to give you what you desire not what you need to make an informed decision in a democracy.

Add to that the media may have its own agenda and/or the owners have desires that will mean that they want to have their companies promote be it ownership laws or religious affiliation (two aspects in Aus... cross-media ownership and scientology).

[Marshal Murat]

I think it's a Russian/Greek Orthodox Church attempt to reclaim the Roman conquests, since Moscow is the 3rd Rome, after Constantinople.

[Charge]

People start caring less about freedom when they are too busy stuffing their pockets with the cash windfall from the oil trade.

Meh. There you see *people* doing it?
5% is not *people*

[AntiochusIII]

Meh. There you see *people* doing it?
5% is not *people*

So I thought.

How's the economy over there, by the way?

[Charge]

Very bad. Moscow is ok though, but the rest sucks , except some truly rich persons with castles, billions (through stealing of course)...

Assuming you mean people's income..

[AntiochusIII]

Very bad. Moscow is ok though, but the rest sucks , except some truly rich persons with castles, billions (through stealing of course)...

Assuming you mean people's income..

I see. Thanks.

I was rather skeptical of the claim that "oil money" improved the average Russian's economic standing since I don't think Russia has, say, Norway's parity of income and distribution system as such.

I feel sorry for you man. This really sucks. I'd hate to be under Putin's Soviet myself.

[HoreTore]

Very bad. Moscow is ok though, but the rest sucks , except some truly rich persons with castles, billions (through stealing of course)...

Assuming you mean people's income..

Actually, it's the other way around. While still bad, the number of people living in poverty* has been cut in half during Putin's rule.

And that gives support.

*that is, under the poverty line, it doesn't mean that they're not poor...

[Louis VI the Fat]

To be honest, in my opinion the painful truth is that Russia really is much better off under Putin than it has been ever since 1989. Putin is an autocrat, but the rule of law actually drastically increased under him. Putin didn't abolish the freedom of the press, human rights, rule of law, a functioning economic system - he rather re-established a minumum of those. Russians are much more secure in their rights and livelihood now than ever during the plunder of the early nineties, the financial crisis of the late nineties, the Yeltsin years.

I can be all sanctimonious about murdered journalists, intimidation, polonium, dictatorial tendencies, aggressive foreign policy, but Putin was a great step up from what was before.

Putin isn't the first autocrat to re-establish order in a country. He is also not the first to not see that the next step should be to step down. History would've judged him kindly if he did. Alas, power corrupts, absolute power etc.

[Vladimir]

You people are sad. The Cold War is over and Russia is our friend. This thread is nothing but an attempt by the US military industrial complex to...Oh I can't remember. Anyone have any good conspiracy theories along this line?

[HoreTore]

You people are sad. The Cold War is over and Russia is our friend. This thread is nothing but an attempt by the US military industrial complex to...Oh I can't remember. Anyone have any good conspiracy theories along this line?

Nah, we're too occupied thinking about Putin's dark side.

Oh, 'cept that Seamus is bought and paid for by CIA, of course. But he blew his cover a long, long time ago.

[Vladimir]

Oh, 'cept that Seamus is bought and paid for by CIA, of course. But he blew his cover a long, long time ago.

I KNEW it!


Can I have a job?

[Kralizec]

I can be all sanctimonious about murdered journalists, intimidation, polonium, dictatorial tendencies, aggressive foreign policy, but Putin was a great step up from what was before.

That said, screw Putin. There are very few dictators in history who didn't do anything good at all. Stalin is viewed mainly positive by Russians because he turned an agrarian society into an industrial and military superpower, but most people don't hesitate to call him a bad boy either.

Western politicians that treat Putin with kid gloves, or even praise the guy into heaven like Schroder or some of the current SPD ministers piss me off immensely.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oh, 'cept that Seamus is bought and paid for by CIA, of course. But he blew his cover a long, long time ago.

I categorically deny this. I am not an employee of any intelligence service. Move along here... nothing to see.

[CrossLOPER]

All hail Pericles Putin.

[Tribesman]

Actually, it's the other way around. While still bad, the number of people living in poverty* has been cut in half during Putin's rule.

Is that because poverty was huge before Putin because the government decided that a good way to stop inflation was to not pay people so they had no money to spend , it isn't much of an achievement to half that is it ...big idea for securing the future .....actually pay people wages for their work and they won't be in the poverty figures because they get paid .

Recent Election Results in Russia -- thoughts?

Yeltsin was dangerous , Putin is dangerous , sneaky and clever , not a nice combination .

[Husar]

Western politicians that treat Putin with kid gloves, or even praise the guy into heaven like Schroder or some of the current SPD ministers piss me off immensely.

Schröder and Putin were good friends, don't you have good friends?

[rvg]

That said, screw Putin. There are very few dictators in history who didn't do anything good at all. Stalin is viewed mainly positive by Russians because he turned an agrarian society into an industrial and military superpower, but most people don't hesitate to call him a bad boy either.

Western politicians that treat Putin with kid gloves, or even praise the guy into heaven like Schroder or some of the current SPD ministers piss me off immensely.

I do not think Putin is evil. His foreign policy is pretty good (i.e. sterering Russia as an independent force as opposed to marching along with the EU/NATO). He did manage to stabilize Russia, stamp out the Chechen terrorist rebellion and bump up the economy. The only thing that I really dislike about him is the fact that he has used his immense popularity to completely subjugate and disenfranchise his own people. That is pretty despicable.

[Tribesman]

stamp out the Chechen terrorist rebellion

You mean that one where the organisation he headed had its operatives planting bombs in apartment blocks of Russian citizens and blaming it on chechen terrorists ??????