A question regarding swastikas

[J.Alco]

Everyone knows that the Swastika was used by the Nazis and, as a result, most people equate it with the holocaust (among other negative aspects).

However, the Swastika as a symbol had existed for about 3000 years BEFORE the Nazis appropriated it, and was even used in parts of Europe as a symbol for good luck, life, and strength. It has been found emblazoned on an ancient greek helmet and on a Roman mosaic, and given the symbol's prevalence in India and other eastern countries, it seems logical to assume that the native peoples of the Diadochoi (Baktria, the easternmost segments of AS, etc) would have used it before, during, and after Alexander's conquest and the rule of the Diadochoi. It also seems logical that, if it represented good luck, it would have been used by soldiers as a way of 'protecting' themselves and getting through a war alive (even Viking reconstructionists use a stylized Swastika on their shields) When considered in the context of history, it's only been recently that it's come to represent, at least in the western world, pure evil.

So, my question to the EB team is this: Your units are created using archeological and source-based evidence, so as to give the game more authenticity. However, if a certain unit (or units) of the eastern Diadochoi factions widely used the Swastika as a symbol (or even if western european soldiers used it) on their armour/shields, would you stick to historical accuracy and include it on the unit model? Or do you think it would be more prudent to avoid any controversy (because of its negative connotations in the west) and not include it?

And to the people in the EB forum, my question is: If the symbol was used in the above-mentioned example, SHOULD the EB team include it? Or would the risk of controversy be too great?

And before anyone starts with comments like 'Did you learn that version of history in your monthly neo-nazi meeting?' I'm including three links to three different websites (wikipedia, inevitably, is included) which basically say everything I've said about the symbol's history. The links are below, check them out if you don't believe me (The swastika on the greek helmet and on the Roman mosaic can be found in the pics in the wiki article. You have to click on the greek helmet image, though, if you wanna see it clearly):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swa...ikahistory.htm

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml


On a related note, I'm not starting this topic to start any trouble, encourage trolling, arguments, or controversy. I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. Please believe me that I don't want to start a flame war, or accuse anyone of anything, I just want to know if the EB team would include a symbol equated with Nazism (in the western world) in a game set in a period of time in which Nazis, evidently, did not exist. I'm just basically looking for a bluntly honest answer, really. Nothing more.

One last thing. If this topic has already been brought up and solved, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm new to the forum and to the game, see, so I don't know what's been discussed here before.

[The_Mark]

Ye gods, your post will make many an EBer happy. A textbook example of asking a question!

The blunt honest answer to your question is, it was done to avoid controversy, especially in Germany. Others will probably elaborate a bit more on this, at least the should, just for the sake of your post.

[Tellos Athenaios]

AFAIK: a swastika is a typical symbol of the sun; and the sun has always been compared to everything good/pleasant/happy in this world. Simple as that. However there are more forms of swastika than the one the Nazi's used as their eblem; and they are all fairly common. (Swirls, rounded of; backwards etc. etc. triangonal, etc. etc.) The one symbol we immediately associate the word Swastika with (the Nazi emblem) appears to be illegal (barring some exceptions) in for example Germany.

AFAIK: the people who make the units decided therefore that they would use other equally common symbols as shield motifs:
-You can only use one per unit; and out of accuracy reasons you don't prefer one over another;
-It prevents you from having to explain this to ignorant people who never think past the word Nazism whenever they see a swastika.
-It keeps your mod legal in countries who've forbidden swastika's; among them Germany.

@The_Mark: ye gods! Your forecast of when the next release of EB will be; is bound to make many people out there very, very unhappy when they realise it.

[overweightninja]

They could always include it as a separate option like the "modesty patch" for the Gesatae. Personally with all the legal/ethical issues swarming around it if an alternative was available I would use it though and just leave the whole damn thing alone .

Oh and as an aside IIRC the Jews actually had a symbol for peace or something that was a Swastika in reverse (although I can't remember where I saw this and how true it is, if someone could confirm for me would be interested!)

Cheers

EDIT oh and btw as The_Mark said, when I first saw this here I thought oh god here we go not in EB too! (Quite into Day of Defeat as well as EB and the amount of hassle I've had with clan recruits grr) but yes a surprisingly good question actually

[Hooahguy]

nope. its called a Chamtzah, IIRC.... im not sure- but is definitly not a swastica in reverse. its a hand.
btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....

[Sakkura]

btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number

[The_Mark]

Spoilsport

[overweightninja]

nope. its called a Chamtzah, IIRC.... im not sure- but is definitly not a swastica in reverse. its a hand.
btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....

You changed it's name!
Any information/links on it?

[Hooahguy]

b/c i asked my rabbi and he told me what it was called.

EDIT: cant find any good info on it. sorry- but i know it means s/t good.....

[konny]

-It keeps your mod legal in countries who've forbidden swastika's; among them Germany.

If that would be correct, EB would already be illegal in Germany because the swastika is shown on Spanish Eleutheroi settlements. But fortunate enough, things are a little more difficult: sawstikas and a lot of other symbols are forbidden when are/might be/considered to be relating to the 'Third Reich', Neo-Nazi organization or anything like that (the term is "verfassungsfeindlich"). In the case of EB there is evidently no such meaning connected with the swastikas shown - neverless you would have problems selling it in shops.

[blitzkrieg80]

yep- basically ONLY Germans nowadays have to play it safe and not use their own ancient symbols of the Bronze age and earlier (which as commented: represent the SUN, hardly anything inappropriate or evil) for the sake of ignorance all over the world concerning the real symbol, simply because of Nazi stupidity... Hitler did more to destroy German heritage than anything he pretended in helping, since now (post ww2) it's even un-hip among academics nonetheless common people to be interested or discuss anything German... with the inevitable references to uber-men abounding
I suppose we should figure out a way to cover the Sun up so no one gets offended when they walk outside.

[The Celtic Viking]

Personally, I don't think they should be included just because they can (I mean, without straying from their path of historical accuracy - obviously the possibility to include them would still be there). But I also don't think that they shouldn't be included just because of controversy - if they existed they existed, and it's not something that should be swiped under the rug. So if it was common enough, it should find a place in the mod IMO. If someone then is offended by it, well, quite frankly I don't care. What a horrible person I am.

[Bootsiuv]

Wasn't the swastika originally reversed? Didn't the Nazis use a 'mirror image' for their swastika? I thought I heard it somewhere.

[macsen rufus]

Wasn't the swastika originally reversed?

The ancient swatika was intended to represent rotation, and the Nazi version reversed that rotation - probably derived from Himmler's occult obsession.

[Foot]

The original image appears both clockwise and anti-clockwise.

Foot

[Bootsiuv]

I thought so....thanks for the clarification guys. Who needs the history channel when you have the EB forums instead!?!

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
The Swastika on the walls of the ruins of Ani, ancient Armenian-Georgian (Bagrat) city in NE Turkey:



The photos were taken by me in Aug. 2006; crazily resized down here.
.

[mcantu]

RTR uses a reversed swastika on the shield of a skirmisher unit...

[Andronikos]

I agree with Blitz. When nazi liked german culture, should we ban it? Should we ban niebelungenlied, norse sagas or artworks of romantism containing german mythology? No, it would be crazy to ban it. And only because someone ill-minded liked it you cannot like it too without being silly like nazi?
But I also agree that it is better to don't use swastika and not have to solve problems about it.

[I Am Herenow]

Well, simply put, wouldn't you feel a bit uneasy if you were controlling little soldiers with swastikas on their shields? The game is meant to be fun, after all - hence the modesty patch, as seeing naked men running about can also make people slightly uncomfortable.

[Bootsiuv]

Not really. I don't relate to things too well that happened 40 years before I was born. I am also aware of it's historical significance prior to the 1930's.

I do understand how it would make some others uncomfortable though.

[I Am Herenow]

I do understand how it would make some others uncomfortable though.

That's what I mean: it would jump out at you/jarr with the rest of the game, even if you knew better.

[Foot]

That's what I mean: it would jump out at you/jarr with the rest of the game, even if you knew better.

It wouldn't for me. I can safely and reliably differentiate between the swastika as used by neo-nazi groups to remember and relive the fascist ideologies and nationalist politics of the Nazi Part of German, and the ancient symbol found in many indo-european cultures across europa and asia. But maybe thats just me...

Foot

[Admetos]

Eventhough I know about said Swastika in ancient times, I must say the first thing I associate it with is the hideous acts carried out by the nazi party, as generally people learn about the nazi use of the swastika before the ancient uses of it. I agree with overweightninja, if it is included for historical reasons which I am in no way, shape or form against, then a patch along the lines of the Gaesatae Modesty Patch should be released as well.

[Watchman]

IMHO anyone who couldn't make the distinction was playing the wrong game to begin with. And/or should sharpen his or her Wiki-fu a bit.

But then again I have notoriously little patience with that sort of ignorance.

[I Am Herenow]

Like I say, looking at it can still make people feel a bit uncomfortable, even if they do know why it's in the game. Best to leave it if there's an alternative shield design/whatever that can be used IMO.

[Foot]

IMHO anyone who couldn't make the distinction was playing the wrong game to begin with. And/or should sharpen his or her Wiki-fu a bit.

But then again I have notoriously little patience with that sort of ignorance.

I didn't realise it was so widely spread throughout human culture. Very interesting.

Foot

[Watchman]

I've read it was a popular good-luck charm among soldiers around the end of WW1 actually. But in any case we were using it in official functions long before those poseur Nazis even existed...
(I've heard they only changed the Order of the White Rose's Grand Cross with Chains from the original pattern after a certain Charles de Gaulle had politely turned down the thing during a state visit... something about it not being appropriate for him to wear something with swastikas.)

[MiniMe]

Like I say, looking at it can still make people feel a bit uncomfortable, even if they do know why it's in the game.

Well, who cares about people unable to see and accept the difference between neo-nazi idiots and adequate representation of ancient indo-european culture?

[Bootsiuv]

Although, like others have said, is it not illegal in Germany? No matter which direction it is oriented?

Considering how many Germans play EB, it might not be the best idea to get EB banned in Germany (although it would be pretty silly if they did, considering the context it would be used in).