A question regarding swastikas

[J.Alco]

Everyone knows that the Swastika was used by the Nazis and, as a result, most people equate it with the holocaust (among other negative aspects).

However, the Swastika as a symbol had existed for about 3000 years BEFORE the Nazis appropriated it, and was even used in parts of Europe as a symbol for good luck, life, and strength. It has been found emblazoned on an ancient greek helmet and on a Roman mosaic, and given the symbol's prevalence in India and other eastern countries, it seems logical to assume that the native peoples of the Diadochoi (Baktria, the easternmost segments of AS, etc) would have used it before, during, and after Alexander's conquest and the rule of the Diadochoi. It also seems logical that, if it represented good luck, it would have been used by soldiers as a way of 'protecting' themselves and getting through a war alive (even Viking reconstructionists use a stylized Swastika on their shields) When considered in the context of history, it's only been recently that it's come to represent, at least in the western world, pure evil.

So, my question to the EB team is this: Your units are created using archeological and source-based evidence, so as to give the game more authenticity. However, if a certain unit (or units) of the eastern Diadochoi factions widely used the Swastika as a symbol (or even if western european soldiers used it) on their armour/shields, would you stick to historical accuracy and include it on the unit model? Or do you think it would be more prudent to avoid any controversy (because of its negative connotations in the west) and not include it?

And to the people in the EB forum, my question is: If the symbol was used in the above-mentioned example, SHOULD the EB team include it? Or would the risk of controversy be too great?

And before anyone starts with comments like 'Did you learn that version of history in your monthly neo-nazi meeting?' I'm including three links to three different websites (wikipedia, inevitably, is included) which basically say everything I've said about the symbol's history. The links are below, check them out if you don't believe me (The swastika on the greek helmet and on the Roman mosaic can be found in the pics in the wiki article. You have to click on the greek helmet image, though, if you wanna see it clearly):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swa...ikahistory.htm

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml


On a related note, I'm not starting this topic to start any trouble, encourage trolling, arguments, or controversy. I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. Please believe me that I don't want to start a flame war, or accuse anyone of anything, I just want to know if the EB team would include a symbol equated with Nazism (in the western world) in a game set in a period of time in which Nazis, evidently, did not exist. I'm just basically looking for a bluntly honest answer, really. Nothing more.

One last thing. If this topic has already been brought up and solved, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm new to the forum and to the game, see, so I don't know what's been discussed here before.

[The_Mark]

Ye gods, your post will make many an EBer happy. A textbook example of asking a question!

The blunt honest answer to your question is, it was done to avoid controversy, especially in Germany. Others will probably elaborate a bit more on this, at least the should, just for the sake of your post.

[Tellos Athenaios]

AFAIK: a swastika is a typical symbol of the sun; and the sun has always been compared to everything good/pleasant/happy in this world. Simple as that. However there are more forms of swastika than the one the Nazi's used as their eblem; and they are all fairly common. (Swirls, rounded of; backwards etc. etc. triangonal, etc. etc.) The one symbol we immediately associate the word Swastika with (the Nazi emblem) appears to be illegal (barring some exceptions) in for example Germany.

AFAIK: the people who make the units decided therefore that they would use other equally common symbols as shield motifs:
-You can only use one per unit; and out of accuracy reasons you don't prefer one over another;
-It prevents you from having to explain this to ignorant people who never think past the word Nazism whenever they see a swastika.
-It keeps your mod legal in countries who've forbidden swastika's; among them Germany.

@The_Mark: ye gods! Your forecast of when the next release of EB will be; is bound to make many people out there very, very unhappy when they realise it.

[overweightninja]

They could always include it as a separate option like the "modesty patch" for the Gesatae. Personally with all the legal/ethical issues swarming around it if an alternative was available I would use it though and just leave the whole damn thing alone .

Oh and as an aside IIRC the Jews actually had a symbol for peace or something that was a Swastika in reverse (although I can't remember where I saw this and how true it is, if someone could confirm for me would be interested!)

Cheers

EDIT oh and btw as The_Mark said, when I first saw this here I thought oh god here we go not in EB too! (Quite into Day of Defeat as well as EB and the amount of hassle I've had with clan recruits grr) but yes a surprisingly good question actually

[Hooahguy]

nope. its called a Chamtzah, IIRC.... im not sure- but is definitly not a swastica in reverse. its a hand.
btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....

[Sakkura]

btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number

[overweightninja]

nope. its called a Chamtzah, IIRC.... im not sure- but is definitly not a swastica in reverse. its a hand.
btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....

You changed it's name!
Any information/links on it?

[konny]

-It keeps your mod legal in countries who've forbidden swastika's; among them Germany.

If that would be correct, EB would already be illegal in Germany because the swastika is shown on Spanish Eleutheroi settlements. But fortunate enough, things are a little more difficult: sawstikas and a lot of other symbols are forbidden when are/might be/considered to be relating to the 'Third Reich', Neo-Nazi organization or anything like that (the term is "verfassungsfeindlich"). In the case of EB there is evidently no such meaning connected with the swastikas shown - neverless you would have problems selling it in shops.

[blitzkrieg80]

yep- basically ONLY Germans nowadays have to play it safe and not use their own ancient symbols of the Bronze age and earlier (which as commented: represent the SUN, hardly anything inappropriate or evil) for the sake of ignorance all over the world concerning the real symbol, simply because of Nazi stupidity... Hitler did more to destroy German heritage than anything he pretended in helping, since now (post ww2) it's even un-hip among academics nonetheless common people to be interested or discuss anything German... with the inevitable references to uber-men abounding
I suppose we should figure out a way to cover the Sun up so no one gets offended when they walk outside.

[The Celtic Viking]

Personally, I don't think they should be included just because they can (I mean, without straying from their path of historical accuracy - obviously the possibility to include them would still be there). But I also don't think that they shouldn't be included just because of controversy - if they existed they existed, and it's not something that should be swiped under the rug. So if it was common enough, it should find a place in the mod IMO. If someone then is offended by it, well, quite frankly I don't care. What a horrible person I am.

[Bootsiuv]

Wasn't the swastika originally reversed? Didn't the Nazis use a 'mirror image' for their swastika? I thought I heard it somewhere.

[Kull]

If that would be correct, EB would already be illegal in Germany because the swastika is shown on Spanish Eleutheroi settlements.

Actually no. That symbol is set of "whirling tears". The appearance of the swastika is an optical illusion, but even that was probably enough to demote this symbol to second place when the EB Team was voting for the new Lusotannan symbol (replacing "Iberia").

This is an interesting topic, btw, and it mirrors a discussion that recently occurred among the team. Most members feel it's not worth using the swastika, as the resulting controversy would overshadow the 99.9999% that is "good" in EB.

For the curious, the difference between this controversy and that involving naked units is that we KNOW certain warriors of this time period fought nude, and to ignore that would be to blatantly change history. Much of our weapon and armor art is derived from ornamentation displayed elsewhere in the various cultures, but usually not something where we have hard evidence that it appeared on a sword, shield, or breastplate. However. If archaeologists unearthed a well-attested shield from this time period and it CLEARLY had swastikas on it? Well, that would be enough to sway me into recommending it's use in game. Otherwise, it's just gratuitous.

[the_handsome_viking]

Everyone knows that the Swastika was used by the Nazis and, as a result, most people equate it with the holocaust (among other negative aspects).

However, the Swastika as a symbol had existed for about 3000 years BEFORE the Nazis appropriated it, and was even used in parts of Europe as a symbol for good luck, life, and strength. It has been found emblazoned on an ancient greek helmet and on a Roman mosaic, and given the symbol's prevalence in India and other eastern countries, it seems logical to assume that the native peoples of the Diadochoi (Baktria, the easternmost segments of AS, etc) would have used it before, during, and after Alexander's conquest and the rule of the Diadochoi. It also seems logical that, if it represented good luck, it would have been used by soldiers as a way of 'protecting' themselves and getting through a war alive (even Viking reconstructionists use a stylized Swastika on their shields) When considered in the context of history, it's only been recently that it's come to represent, at least in the western world, pure evil.

So, my question to the EB team is this: Your units are created using archeological and source-based evidence, so as to give the game more authenticity. However, if a certain unit (or units) of the eastern Diadochoi factions widely used the Swastika as a symbol (or even if western european soldiers used it) on their armour/shields, would you stick to historical accuracy and include it on the unit model? Or do you think it would be more prudent to avoid any controversy (because of its negative connotations in the west) and not include it?

And to the people in the EB forum, my question is: If the symbol was used in the above-mentioned example, SHOULD the EB team include it? Or would the risk of controversy be too great?

And before anyone starts with comments like 'Did you learn that version of history in your monthly neo-nazi meeting?' I'm including three links to three different websites (wikipedia, inevitably, is included) which basically say everything I've said about the symbol's history. The links are below, check them out if you don't believe me (The swastika on the greek helmet and on the Roman mosaic can be found in the pics in the wiki article. You have to click on the greek helmet image, though, if you wanna see it clearly):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swa...ikahistory.htm

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml


On a related note, I'm not starting this topic to start any trouble, encourage trolling, arguments, or controversy. I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. Please believe me that I don't want to start a flame war, or accuse anyone of anything, I just want to know if the EB team would include a symbol equated with Nazism (in the western world) in a game set in a period of time in which Nazis, evidently, did not exist. I'm just basically looking for a bluntly honest answer, really. Nothing more.

One last thing. If this topic has already been brought up and solved, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm new to the forum and to the game, see, so I don't know what's been discussed here before.

Because it would be used for scholarly reasons, the German laws would have nothing against it, infact, I would go as far as to say one would have to be remarkably stupid, uneducated or both to accuse EB of being a stomping ground for national socialists.

That said I do find it somewhat Ironic that manly of the cultures and peoples depicted in EB are by modern standards absolutely worse than the conventional morality that deems the Nazis evil.

But generally speaking theres entirely no reason why the Swastika cant be in the game, National Socialism wasn't around during 300bc.

[macsen rufus]

Personally, I'd love to rehabilitate the swastika from the taint of Nazism and return it to what it once was, a life-affirming symbol of light. However, I don't see the need for a game to be in the forefront of that fight, and I'd rather know the EB team were doing more of their excellent creative work on the mod than wasting time fighting off law-suits, hate mail or whatever. Maybe with EB37.0 release the world may have moved on enough, but not yet. I support the developers in their decision

[Subedei]

Me -being a German- thinks:

- I would not want to confuse the historically correct with the political incorrect. In my eyes it is 2 kinds of shoes. I think all the EB members understood that...Well, most if i recall some minor intelligent posts by a tiny minority of people in the community.

Back to topic: It may well be, that if some random person checks pictures in the web or a parent looks at the screen of little son's monitor...they may think "What the heck?". On a second look every minor intelligent person should get the idea that a half-naked, tunika-pimping and Javelin throwing freak with long hair was not your average Wehrmachts- or SS Übersoldat...in case any existed.

- Besides that: I just outright hate the people wearing the symbol. In fact it is the only category of people i generalize in a negative way...oh, and people chatting and swimming next to each other in crowded public pools, but that's a different story.

- Plus: I just do not like the design....so I don´t wanna/have to have it in the game....

[The_Mark]

Back to topic: It may well be, that if some random person checks pictures in the web or a parent looks at the screen of little son's monitor...they may think "What the heck?". On a second look every minor intelligent person should get the idea that a half-naked, tunika-pimping and Javelin throwing freak with long hair was not your average Wehrmachts- or SS Übersoldat...in case any existed.

Idiots are more plentiful than those possessing even minor quantities of intelligence, and they're much more loud and annoying.

[Redmeth]

The scenario Subedei described could really turn in a South-Park-esque scenario with concerned parents boycotting EB.