A question regarding swastikas

[The_Mark]

Back to topic: It may well be, that if some random person checks pictures in the web or a parent looks at the screen of little son's monitor...they may think "What the heck?". On a second look every minor intelligent person should get the idea that a half-naked, tunika-pimping and Javelin throwing freak with long hair was not your average Wehrmachts- or SS Übersoldat...in case any existed.

Idiots are more plentiful than those possessing even minor quantities of intelligence, and they're much more loud and annoying.

[Redmeth]

The scenario Subedei described could really turn in a South-Park-esque scenario with concerned parents boycotting EB.

[Watchman]

So what's wrong with free publicity ?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Ban the cross too. It was on the Nazi flag.
.

[Kampfkrebs]

.
Ban the cross too. It was on the Nazi flag.
.

It is called balkenkreuz, not a cross <.<

please inform youself before posting about bad nazis

[Subedei]

It is called balkenkreuz, not a cross <.<

please inform youself before posting about bad nazis

??? He may not be a native German speaker...You may have noticed it, if you informed yourself about the location he comes from. No offence KK, I am a native German speaker and I did not know about the Balken-thingy. AFAIK everbody in Germany calls it "Hakenkreuz"...and Kreuz translates into "cross". Right? So what is your point?

[Kampfkrebs]

I know he is not a native speaker.
Lets take a look at some crosses:

This is a Balkenkreuz (I use the german word because there is no english word for it afaik)


This was used by the Wehrmacht (third "reich" army). This is bad.

This is a Tatzenkreuz (again there isnt a english word for it)


This is used by the modern day german army (Bundeswehr - "Federal defence"). This is good.

And how a Hakenkreuz (Swastika) looks does hopefully everyone know, so no need to post a pic.

So what is your point?

There are so many different kinds of crosses around the world, so you cant say "ban the cross", because there isnt "THE cross". Every cross has it special name, that is what I wanted to say. (Yes I know Mouzafphaerre´s post was meant ironically )

(So, sesamstraße zu ende )

[Subedei]

O.k., I got the point. Who would have expected crosses to be that numerous in specifications.

["Wer nicht fragt, bleibt dumm!" Grüße in den geliebten Pott!]

[blitzkrieg80]

no, i think the point is that ALL crosses should be banned, which means crucifixes too.

and like i said before, ALL gnomes should be banned, especially gnarled ones (damn you Staaaaaalin!)... your Nisse and garden gnomes are borderline but ok because they're just sooo cute

[Mouzafphaerre]

It is called balkenkreuz, not a cross <.<

please inform youself before posting about bad nazis

.
I didn't take this offensive and the <.< is sort of a smiley I believe. But thanks anyway Subudei.

Kampfkrebs, as there are many types of crosses, there are at least more than one types of swastikas. But indeed, my post was a gahly one.
.

[Kampfkrebs]

.
I didn't take this offensive and the <.< is sort of a smiley I believe.
.

Yes, this wasnt meant to be offensive,just wanted to.....gah forget it, BAN ALL TEH CROSSES PLZ!!!1

[Watchman]

This is a Tatzenkreuz (again there isnt a english word for it)

Isn't that form usually called "Maltese cross" in English ?

Random side note: I was looking through a book on WW1 German tanks yesterday. Guess which later rather notorious symbol was in one variation used as a tactical recognition marking by one unit...?
Originality clearly wasn't the Nazis' strong suit.

[cmacq]

Clearly, this is the road to runes, or was that Og'hum?

[Sakkura]

Isn't that form usually called "Maltese cross" in English ?

Random side note: I was looking through a book on WW1 German tanks yesterday. Guess which later rather notorious symbol was in one variation used as a tactical recognition marking by one unit...?
Originality clearly wasn't the Nazis' strong suit.

Nope, a Maltese cross is different (and isn't that name used everywhere?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross

The one pictured is a variant of the iron cross:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross
Which is a form of Cross pattée:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_patt%C3%A9e

[Sakkura]

This is a Balkenkreuz (I use the german word because there is no english word for it afaik)
This was used by the Wehrmacht (third "reich" army). This is bad.

This is a Tatzenkreuz (again there isnt a english word for it)
This is used by the modern day german army (Bundeswehr - "Federal defence"). This is good.

Actually the Nazis used both types. Beats me why Germans tossed out one of them after the war and kept the other.

The Tatzenkreuz was also referred to as the Eisernes Kreuz in German (when used as a decoration), hence the English name Iron Cross.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisernes_Kreuz

[Kampfkrebs]

Actually the Nazis used both types. Beats me why Germans tossed out one of them after the war and kept the other.

The Tatzenkreuz was also referred to as the Eisernes Kreuz in German (when used as a decoration), hence the English name Iron Cross.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisernes_Kreuz

The Iron cross form (aka Tatzenkreuz) was only used on german medals, and according to wikipedia a quite long time.
AFAIK the Tatzenkreuz/Iron cross form was never used as a symbol on military materials/gear (like aircrafts, tanks, uniforms), and it was never used as a propaganda thingy by the nazis (unlike the Balkenkreuz). This may be the reason why the Bundeswehr took it as their symbol today, and if they want to be related to some former german military organisation (but officially they are "in tradition" to noone, also "standalone" in history), its the old Reichwehr from the Weimarer republic (first democratic - at least on the paper - governorment germany ever had).

Im not a history prof. and my favourite history scenarios are the diadochi and arround, but what Ive written should be ok like it is.

[Legatus Legionis]

Actually the Tatzenkreuz was used during the 1st WW by Germany. I have no clue why the Nazis changed it.

http://web2.altmuehlnet.de/luklam/Mo...kker%20Dr1.jpg

[konny]

Actually the Nazis used both types. Beats me why Germans tossed out one of them after the war and kept the other.

The Tatzenkreuz was also referred to as the Eisernes Kreuz in German (when used as a decoration), hence the English name Iron Cross.

The reason is that the Iron Cross has nothing to do with the Nazi Party. It was, and still is, a symbol of the German (before 1871: Prussian) army since 1813. The only fact that links it to the NS-periode is that it was also used by the army between 1933 and 1945.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
There are a few Iron Crosses in our family inheritence, dressed to my grandfather's uncle, who was an Ottoman general in the WW1 (as well as before and after, and died as a retired Republican general). He was the second man in Gallipoli, chief of staff to Von Sanders.
.

[Sakkura]

The reason is that the Iron Cross has nothing to do with the Nazi Party. It was, and still is, a symbol of the German (before 1871: Prussian) army since 1813. The only fact that links it to the NS-periode is that it was also used by the army between 1933 and 1945.

Yeah but the balkenkreuz AFAIK didn't have any more association with the nazis than the Iron Cross. It was just used on planes, tanks etc. (and was introduced in late WWI).

[konny]

Yeah but the balkenkreuz AFAIK didn't have any more association with the nazis than the Iron Cross. It was just used on planes, tanks etc. (and was introduced in late WWI).

It was a variation that was introduced by the navy in 1916, when Hitler was a little private, Goebbels was studing to become a priest, Göring was pilot under Richthofen, Himmler was still at school and no one had an idea what 'Nazi' should be.

And of course, it was used on German planes, tanks etc., it was an military identifying mark.

[Kampfkrebs]

The balkenkreuz and the Iron cross is the same

Balkenkreuz is the shape of the iron cross

€dit: not balkenkreuz of course, I mean tatzenkreuz

[Sakkura]

It was a variation that was introduced by the navy in 1916, when Hitler was a little private, Goebbels was studing to become a priest, Göring was pilot under Richthofen, Himmler was still at school and no one had an idea what 'Nazi' should be.

And of course, it was used on German planes, tanks etc., it was an military identifying mark.

Exactly. Both of those crosses were used before the nazi party existed and were used by the armed forces with no special nazi connotations (unlike the swastika). Which is why I find it a little odd if Germany allows one but not the other.

[konny]

Which is why I find it a little odd if Germany allows one but not the other.

I don't know what actually were the reasons to return to the old style 1955. For sure, distinguishing the new Bundeswehr from the WWII Wehrmacht was an argument. That should probbaly also create a Prussian heritage for the new army.

[Intranetusa]

^ btw, the swastika is also a symbol for love and peace :) in Buddhism, and is commonly found in Buddhist festivals in PRC-China, ROC-Taiwan, Koreas, and Japan.

[Ariovistus]

To add an entirely constructive contribution to the cross-discussion...
I'm actually working on a petition to be sent to the German Ministry of Internal affairs, pleading for the internet being searched on any pages containing the symbol x - yeah, x, and blocking access to those pages from german IPs, or alternatively trying to get a trojan and that server and f...ing take it down, woohoo (yes, Mr. Schäuble knows what I am talking about).
I mean, really, I'm not someone who is nitpicking about such things, but look at the X. Actually nobody needs it, and when you take a look at it and imagine some tiny serifs at the edges of the crosses arms, or maybe a little rotation... you know what I mean.
I'm almost entirely sure that these symbol is or will be used as some sort of distinctive mark by neonazis, who think that they will be safe under the cover of the legal X, but ha, they didn't reckon on me. I tend to look suspiciously on people bearing that symbol on their shirts - those people seem to be innumerous, with words on their shirts like Sexmachine or XXL, displaying their ideology in such a shameless manner. I swear, next time I'll see someone like that, I won't hesitate to handle them as they deserve.
I could give uncountable more examples. I've been recently told about XXX pages in the internet that I should not visit - surely to avoid ideological manipulation - or a film named xXx, featuring some sort of Übermensch as protagonist.
So, ban the x, for showing those bastards we won't tolerate the open showing of their ideology.
*Sarcasm off*

Seriously, I am pretty happy that the swastika isn't included in EB. Yes, I know that this symbol has been used for many centuries without any negative meaning, but, you know, it does rise some ungood feeling when seeing it, especially for some idiots keep on using it - and I mean the ones that use it in the meaning it was used 1933-45. This is just not a topic that can be discussed all rational, but one has to keep an eye on the connotations that symbols bring along.
But regarding some of the postings made above, albeit if meant serious or not, it tempted me to just quarry out such a satirical post.
So move along people, there's nothing to see here.
Yours sincerely,
your jocular Ariovistus

[Kham]

Although, like others have said, is it not illegal in Germany? No matter which direction it is oriented?

The answer to that is not entirely clear. There was a guy who had a shop selling Anti-Fa (Anti-Fascist group, mostly punks) stuff like t-shirts with images like a broken swastika in a waste-basket. Or one in a red circle with a red bar across it (like road-signs for things that are forbidden).

He was charged by an over-ambitious state-attorney and sentenced by a low-level court for distributing forbidden nazi-propaganda.

But a higher-level court ruled last year, that yes: he was indeed showing a nazi-symbol. But no: he did not advertise nazi ideas but was trying to fight them.

What complicates the whole issue is, that neo-nazis used many stylized nazi symbols to prevent the ban of the "original" ones.

So now it is up to courts to decide from case to case whether the usage could be promoting nazi ideas or fighting it. That goes for t-shirts, posters, coffee-mugs etc.

In history books, movies about the time etc. it can be used. Unless you try to tell lies or to say that the nazis were actually cool. That would be "Volksverhetzung" and get you in front of a court quickly.