A question regarding swastikas

[Watchman]

I've read it was a popular good-luck charm among soldiers around the end of WW1 actually. But in any case we were using it in official functions long before those poseur Nazis even existed...
(I've heard they only changed the Order of the White Rose's Grand Cross with Chains from the original pattern after a certain Charles de Gaulle had politely turned down the thing during a state visit... something about it not being appropriate for him to wear something with swastikas.)

[MiniMe]

Like I say, looking at it can still make people feel a bit uncomfortable, even if they do know why it's in the game.

Well, who cares about people unable to see and accept the difference between neo-nazi idiots and adequate representation of ancient indo-european culture?

[Bootsiuv]

Although, like others have said, is it not illegal in Germany? No matter which direction it is oriented?

Considering how many Germans play EB, it might not be the best idea to get EB banned in Germany (although it would be pretty silly if they did, considering the context it would be used in).

[Oleander Ardens]

When I was in India my trekking partner from Israel seemed especially keen to make fotos of Swastikas - a strange kind of attraction, a playful way to confront a sign under a part of his family was killed. Said that I would prefer to have a mod with would alllow the inclusion of it, because it was a symbol of great importance for many ancient cultures...

I quite sure that no person will accuse me to spread Nazi propaganda for advocating this policy

Cheers
OA

[johhny-turbo]

If it was prevelant enough among something in the game, then include it.

I think this would be even easier to do in EB2 when different models for the same unit comes along.

[Bootsiuv]

While I agree that it's inclusion is warranted based solely on historical significance, I think it might create more controversy than it's worth....at least in EB1.

Is it really that important to have that symbol adorn your shields? Like others have said, there are several other symbols which wouldn't require a disclaimer and constant questioning and/or flaming by those less enlightened.

The final decision rests with the team, but I really don't see the need for such things. I would have nothing against it (and would likely enjoy it's inclusion), but I am not everyone, and I have no experience (first hand, anyways) with the symbol in a negative way.

Just my humble opinion.

[KARTLOS]

i would prefer it is kept out of the game, or at least is not used in association with germanic units. it certainly brings back unpleasant memories of what the germans inflicted on the world in the 30's and 40's.

[artavazd]

Stalin inflicted alot during the 30's and 40's as well.


The Swastika is found in ancient indo-european cultures. In Armenia, the Swastika represented the sun and the cycle of life. Even after Armenia became a christian nation, the swatika was a part of life. Here is an image of the medival city of Ani which was the capital of Armenia during the Bagratuni kings. ( a branch of the Armenian Bagratuni's became kings of Georgia lasting until 1801 AD)


http://www.hayary.org/images/star_pictures/ani.jpg


these are cave paintings from Armenia:

http://www.armenianhighland.com/imag.../nkar_3840.jpg



artifacts showing the diffrent forms of the life cycle "swastika" :

http://www.armenianhighland.com/imag.../nkar_2687.jpg


more images:

http://www.armenianhighland.com/imag.../nkar_3447.jpg

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

.
The Swastika on the walls of the ruins of Ani, ancient Armenian-Georgian (Bagrat) city in NE Turkey:



The photos were taken by me in Aug. 2006; crazily resized down here.
.

Here is an image of the medival city of Ani which was the capital of Armenia during the Bagratuni kings. ( a branch of the Armenian Bagratuni's became kings of Georgia lasting until 1801 AD)


http://www.hayary.org/images/star_pictures/ani.jpg

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[Garbarsardar]

Living in Taiwan, I'm pretty used in seeing Swastikas around me despite the initial cultural shock. Furthermore in HOI2 I use the Swastika modification since it is rather silly to play as (or against) Germany with that visual element absent; that undermines greatly historical accuracy.

That said, gaming and fora are totally different beasts than the real world. A release with swastikas is bound to be misinterpreted by many and it is really up to the EB team if they would welcome this kind of controversy. There is no such thing as bad publicity, I am aware of that tenant, but I feel that all factors consider the inclusion of an historically accurate but so unfortunately tainted symbol is bound to create unnecessary distraction from the virtues of such an excellent mod.

[Foot]

I would be slightly afraid of any person who confused the EB team with a splinter group from Combat 18.

What I don't get is that people, who have no problem with exterminating the populace of ancient cities will get all uppity with cultural symbols, which for a short period of a very long history was associated with morally outrageous regime, but otherwise had no such connotations. Can't we be ever more slightly enlightened. I can understand why they would be banned as graffiti in much of western europe, but to be outraged for their appearance in a computer game which deals in a time before the use of the swastika as a symbol of brutality and evil is, in my opinion, to be blinded by the same emotion and generalisation that was behind the facist though of the 20th century.

Foot

[blank]

I would be slightly afraid of any person who confused the EB team with a splinter group from Combat 18.

What I don't get is that people, who have no problem with exterminating the populace of ancient cities will get all uppity with cultural symbols, which for a short period of a very long history was associated with morally outrageous regime, but otherwise had no such connotations. Can't we be ever more slightly enlightened. I can understand why they would be banned as graffiti in much of western europe, but to be outraged for their appearance in a computer game which deals in a time before the use of the swastika as a symbol of brutality and evil is, in my opinion, to be blinded by the same emotion and generalisation that was behind the facist though of the 20th century.

Foot

Well said.

Also, i have to wonder why the hammer and sickle aren't banned...

[Watchman]

I don't know about you, but I rather prefer hammers to rocks when I need to pound in nails...
'S not like the Soviets trademarked those tools or anything.

Anyway, if there was a historical-accuracy reason to have the symbol in the game somewhere it should IMO then be in; if some *SILLY COW* who hasn't done his homework goes and gets his undies all a-twist over it, his loss. But then I've never had much time for such people anyway.

[Intranetusa]

^ btw, the swastika is also a symbol for love and peace :) in Buddhism, and is commonly found in Buddhist festivals in PRC-China, ROC-Taiwan, Koreas, and Japan.

[Ariovistus]

To add an entirely constructive contribution to the cross-discussion...
I'm actually working on a petition to be sent to the German Ministry of Internal affairs, pleading for the internet being searched on any pages containing the symbol x - yeah, x, and blocking access to those pages from german IPs, or alternatively trying to get a trojan and that server and f...ing take it down, woohoo (yes, Mr. Schäuble knows what I am talking about).
I mean, really, I'm not someone who is nitpicking about such things, but look at the X. Actually nobody needs it, and when you take a look at it and imagine some tiny serifs at the edges of the crosses arms, or maybe a little rotation... you know what I mean.
I'm almost entirely sure that these symbol is or will be used as some sort of distinctive mark by neonazis, who think that they will be safe under the cover of the legal X, but ha, they didn't reckon on me. I tend to look suspiciously on people bearing that symbol on their shirts - those people seem to be innumerous, with words on their shirts like Sexmachine or XXL, displaying their ideology in such a shameless manner. I swear, next time I'll see someone like that, I won't hesitate to handle them as they deserve.
I could give uncountable more examples. I've been recently told about XXX pages in the internet that I should not visit - surely to avoid ideological manipulation - or a film named xXx, featuring some sort of Übermensch as protagonist.
So, ban the x, for showing those bastards we won't tolerate the open showing of their ideology.
*Sarcasm off*

Seriously, I am pretty happy that the swastika isn't included in EB. Yes, I know that this symbol has been used for many centuries without any negative meaning, but, you know, it does rise some ungood feeling when seeing it, especially for some idiots keep on using it - and I mean the ones that use it in the meaning it was used 1933-45. This is just not a topic that can be discussed all rational, but one has to keep an eye on the connotations that symbols bring along.
But regarding some of the postings made above, albeit if meant serious or not, it tempted me to just quarry out such a satirical post.
So move along people, there's nothing to see here.
Yours sincerely,
your jocular Ariovistus

[Kham]

Although, like others have said, is it not illegal in Germany? No matter which direction it is oriented?

The answer to that is not entirely clear. There was a guy who had a shop selling Anti-Fa (Anti-Fascist group, mostly punks) stuff like t-shirts with images like a broken swastika in a waste-basket. Or one in a red circle with a red bar across it (like road-signs for things that are forbidden).

He was charged by an over-ambitious state-attorney and sentenced by a low-level court for distributing forbidden nazi-propaganda.

But a higher-level court ruled last year, that yes: he was indeed showing a nazi-symbol. But no: he did not advertise nazi ideas but was trying to fight them.

What complicates the whole issue is, that neo-nazis used many stylized nazi symbols to prevent the ban of the "original" ones.

So now it is up to courts to decide from case to case whether the usage could be promoting nazi ideas or fighting it. That goes for t-shirts, posters, coffee-mugs etc.

In history books, movies about the time etc. it can be used. Unless you try to tell lies or to say that the nazis were actually cool. That would be "Volksverhetzung" and get you in front of a court quickly.