A question regarding swastikas

[Oleander Ardens]

When I was in India my trekking partner from Israel seemed especially keen to make fotos of Swastikas - a strange kind of attraction, a playful way to confront a sign under a part of his family was killed. Said that I would prefer to have a mod with would alllow the inclusion of it, because it was a symbol of great importance for many ancient cultures...

I quite sure that no person will accuse me to spread Nazi propaganda for advocating this policy

Cheers
OA

[johhny-turbo]

If it was prevelant enough among something in the game, then include it.

I think this would be even easier to do in EB2 when different models for the same unit comes along.

[Bootsiuv]

While I agree that it's inclusion is warranted based solely on historical significance, I think it might create more controversy than it's worth....at least in EB1.

Is it really that important to have that symbol adorn your shields? Like others have said, there are several other symbols which wouldn't require a disclaimer and constant questioning and/or flaming by those less enlightened.

The final decision rests with the team, but I really don't see the need for such things. I would have nothing against it (and would likely enjoy it's inclusion), but I am not everyone, and I have no experience (first hand, anyways) with the symbol in a negative way.

Just my humble opinion.

[Kull]

If that would be correct, EB would already be illegal in Germany because the swastika is shown on Spanish Eleutheroi settlements.

Actually no. That symbol is set of "whirling tears". The appearance of the swastika is an optical illusion, but even that was probably enough to demote this symbol to second place when the EB Team was voting for the new Lusotannan symbol (replacing "Iberia").

This is an interesting topic, btw, and it mirrors a discussion that recently occurred among the team. Most members feel it's not worth using the swastika, as the resulting controversy would overshadow the 99.9999% that is "good" in EB.

For the curious, the difference between this controversy and that involving naked units is that we KNOW certain warriors of this time period fought nude, and to ignore that would be to blatantly change history. Much of our weapon and armor art is derived from ornamentation displayed elsewhere in the various cultures, but usually not something where we have hard evidence that it appeared on a sword, shield, or breastplate. However. If archaeologists unearthed a well-attested shield from this time period and it CLEARLY had swastikas on it? Well, that would be enough to sway me into recommending it's use in game. Otherwise, it's just gratuitous.

[KARTLOS]

i would prefer it is kept out of the game, or at least is not used in association with germanic units. it certainly brings back unpleasant memories of what the germans inflicted on the world in the 30's and 40's.

[artavazd]

Stalin inflicted alot during the 30's and 40's as well.


The Swastika is found in ancient indo-european cultures. In Armenia, the Swastika represented the sun and the cycle of life. Even after Armenia became a christian nation, the swatika was a part of life. Here is an image of the medival city of Ani which was the capital of Armenia during the Bagratuni kings. ( a branch of the Armenian Bagratuni's became kings of Georgia lasting until 1801 AD)


http://www.hayary.org/images/star_pictures/ani.jpg


these are cave paintings from Armenia:

http://www.armenianhighland.com/imag.../nkar_3840.jpg



artifacts showing the diffrent forms of the life cycle "swastika" :

http://www.armenianhighland.com/imag.../nkar_2687.jpg


more images:

http://www.armenianhighland.com/imag.../nkar_3447.jpg

[Mouzafphaerre]

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The Swastika on the walls of the ruins of Ani, ancient Armenian-Georgian (Bagrat) city in NE Turkey:



The photos were taken by me in Aug. 2006; crazily resized down here.
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Here is an image of the medival city of Ani which was the capital of Armenia during the Bagratuni kings. ( a branch of the Armenian Bagratuni's became kings of Georgia lasting until 1801 AD)


http://www.hayary.org/images/star_pictures/ani.jpg

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[Garbarsardar]

Living in Taiwan, I'm pretty used in seeing Swastikas around me despite the initial cultural shock. Furthermore in HOI2 I use the Swastika modification since it is rather silly to play as (or against) Germany with that visual element absent; that undermines greatly historical accuracy.

That said, gaming and fora are totally different beasts than the real world. A release with swastikas is bound to be misinterpreted by many and it is really up to the EB team if they would welcome this kind of controversy. There is no such thing as bad publicity, I am aware of that tenant, but I feel that all factors consider the inclusion of an historically accurate but so unfortunately tainted symbol is bound to create unnecessary distraction from the virtues of such an excellent mod.

[Foot]

I would be slightly afraid of any person who confused the EB team with a splinter group from Combat 18.

What I don't get is that people, who have no problem with exterminating the populace of ancient cities will get all uppity with cultural symbols, which for a short period of a very long history was associated with morally outrageous regime, but otherwise had no such connotations. Can't we be ever more slightly enlightened. I can understand why they would be banned as graffiti in much of western europe, but to be outraged for their appearance in a computer game which deals in a time before the use of the swastika as a symbol of brutality and evil is, in my opinion, to be blinded by the same emotion and generalisation that was behind the facist though of the 20th century.

Foot

[blank]

I would be slightly afraid of any person who confused the EB team with a splinter group from Combat 18.

What I don't get is that people, who have no problem with exterminating the populace of ancient cities will get all uppity with cultural symbols, which for a short period of a very long history was associated with morally outrageous regime, but otherwise had no such connotations. Can't we be ever more slightly enlightened. I can understand why they would be banned as graffiti in much of western europe, but to be outraged for their appearance in a computer game which deals in a time before the use of the swastika as a symbol of brutality and evil is, in my opinion, to be blinded by the same emotion and generalisation that was behind the facist though of the 20th century.

Foot

Well said.

Also, i have to wonder why the hammer and sickle aren't banned...

[Watchman]

I don't know about you, but I rather prefer hammers to rocks when I need to pound in nails...
'S not like the Soviets trademarked those tools or anything.

Anyway, if there was a historical-accuracy reason to have the symbol in the game somewhere it should IMO then be in; if some *SILLY COW* who hasn't done his homework goes and gets his undies all a-twist over it, his loss. But then I've never had much time for such people anyway.

[blank]

I don't know about you, but I rather prefer hammers to rocks when I need to pound in nails...
'S not like the Soviets trademarked those tools or anything.

...and the nazis "trademarked" the swastika?

I was talking about the symbol of hammer and sickle crossed, not the tools themselves

[Thaatu]

I just can't get over the fact that it's outlawed in some places, as if the symbol itself has caused harm.

[blitzkrieg80]

next the symbol itself will be considered a "hate" crime, since normal crimes aren't illegal enough. now if only we had a prison designed for pictures and ideas... maybe we should just start destroying all evidence of it and making it manditory to visit Clockword Orange centers to have regular check-ups on our thoughts: it won't reduce hate or violence, but we can feel righteous and moral

maybe Russia should have 'looking like a gnarled gnome' banned, since Stalin gave that image such a horrible reputation poor gnarled gnome people everywhere get a bad rap because of the coincidence of looking like him... poor Dennis Kucinich

[khelvan]

My attitude is this, and what I shared with the team when I was an active member:

EB is not trying to make a political statement, or thumb its collective nose at the establishment. EB is simply making a mod for our, and everyone's, enjoyment.

Things that are offensive, for whatever reason, will either not be included or be an optional inclusion. It really is that simple. Many different justifications may be used for their inclusion, and many invalid assumptions about what kind of statement we make when we don't include them might be found, but in the end it really is simple.

If people will be greatly offended by it, regardless of why, it either isn't included or is optional.

Any further philosophical or sociological discussion is just that, discussion for the sake of discussion and is outside the scope of what EB is.

[artavazd]

Mouzafphaerre are you Georgian?



I could just see it. 100 years from now the German people are STILL going to be reminded every day how "bad" their great grand fathers were. Mind you the Germans have paid their depts, and this force of guilt on them should stop.


A nation whose people have faced a genocide such as Israel does not recognize the Armenian genocide, practices a similar one with the Palestinians, and lobbies in Washington DC for her ally Turkey to not get the Armenian genoicde passed in congress. but at the same time it is illigal to debate ANY aspect of the Holocaust. Its intresting on how some people go to jail for their thoughts, and some people get away with murder.



Swastika is older then Hitler and the Third Riech if it is historicaly accurate (which it is) to have this indo-european life cycle in the game then it should be in the game.

[Watchman]

I've actually gotten the impression the Germans themselves do most of the flagellation on the topic. Can't blame them for having a sort of collective bad conscience about it, but it gets downright embarassing at times. "Lay it off man - that was your grandparents, not you" kind of thing, if you know what I mean.

Then again, we were sort of allied to them at the time.

[artavazd]

I've actually gotten the impression the Germans themselves do most of the flagellation on the topic. Can't blame them for having a sort of collective bad conscience about it, but it gets downright embarassing at times. "Lay it off man - that was your grandparents, not you" kind of thing, if you know what I mean.

Then again, we were sort of allied to them at the time.

it is the policies, and the education system that breeds guilt in the people. We have a saying in Armenian, I think I've heard it in English as well.

THE FISH STINKS FROM THE HEAD

[Anastasios Helios]

First of all...the Führer was a git.

The Nazis used the swastika because they believed it to be a long lost link with their supposed 'Aryan' (forgive me for the use of this word) brothers in northern India. The swastika was not only used by Indo-European cultures, evidence of swastikas have been found in the old Meso-American civilizations, East Asia, and G-d knows where. Personally, I am not against the use of the swastika on the game...it is a bad symbol only when people make it bad. I wish that people would stop trying to be politically correct all of the time and don't be afraid of their history. I live in Mississippi and I hardly care if rednecks want to fly Confederate flags in their yard...it doesn't bother me to see people celebrating their heritage. If the old Germanic cultures used it in their art...then I wanna see some german clubmen with swastikas on their shields beating the shit out of Roman legionnaires.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Mouzafphaerre are you Georgian?

Nope, Turkish with no extra ethnic attributes AFAIK, except one of my great-grandmothers being probably Circassian, but with roots in modern day Armenia and Azerbaijan (Karabağ, Erivan, Sofyan) 9 generations back.

A nation whose people have faced a genocide such as Israel does not recognize the Armenian genocide, practices a similar one with the Palestinians, and lobbies in Washington DC for her ally Turkey to not get the Armenian genoicde passed in congress. but at the same time it is illigal to debate ANY aspect of the Holocaust. Its intresting on how some people go to jail for their thoughts, and some people get away with murder.

Dirty politics all around the world. The Holocaust has been used as propaganda material to firmly establish the Jewish state in ME. (Just in case, I'm not a Holocaust denier, and thank God I'm devoid and sick of all kinds of nationalism and counter-nationalism.) Armenian genocide, OTOH, is often used against Turkey as political blackmailing material but never fully recognized just to keep it hot when need be, and easily play with the pseudo-fascist Turkish state.

THE FISH STINKS FROM THE HEAD

It exists in exact translation ("Balık baştan kokar.") and meaning in Turkish.
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[artavazd]

WOW first time I have talked with a Turk as two decent human beings should. I agree with you on all the points you made. My fathers side is from Karin ( Erzerum) and my mothers side is from Van. Take care friend

[Kurulham]

Personally, I'm glad they weren't included, and if they were and a patch were provided to remove them I'd make use of it. This isn't because I'm unaware of the ancient and noble heritage of the swastika but because of the fact that, despite all the study in the world, my knee-jerk, split-second reaction when I see the symbol, right-handed or left-handed, is "ZOMG NAZIS". It would be very distracting.

Makes it rather interesting being over here in Japan as the right-handed swastika, termed manji, is the universal sign on maps for "Buddhist site of interest", much as the torii gate for a Shinto site or a cross for a church in the West. You go looking for the Kamakura Daibutsu and suddenly your brain goes ZOMG NAZIS at you. Odd.

[Mouzafphaerre]

WOW first time I have talked with a Turk as two decent human beings should. I agree with you on all the points you made. My fathers side is from Karin ( Erzerum) and my mothers side is from Van. Take care friend

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[Thaatu]

Then again, we were sort of allied to them at the time.

And still managed to maintain a moral high ground. Damn we're good.

...well okay, we lost the moral high ground with the alliance for some eyes, but it doesn't matter when switched to kickass gear.

[The_Mark]

Don't forget, after we beat the Ruskies off we beat the Gerries out of Finland as well. In essence, we fought bought the Allies and the Axis in WW2 and still survived with one of the three unoccupied capitals (the other two being London and Moscow) amongst the war-faring countries of Europe: Helsinki!

Yes, we're that good.

[Watchman]

I believe the applicable term is "rats abandoning a sinking ship" mind you.

[Helgi]

As far as the swastika, perhaps if we some how show some of the major groups that have serious issues with the swastika, and explain the context to which it would be used; maybe they'll to sign off on it, for example> by doing what the show "Family Guy" did, they have a episode called "Once upon a Wienstien" and showed it to about of Rabbies, the Rabbies were cool with it and it showed on both the 1st season DVD and on TV. So by sitting down with those various groups and kinda show them that this has nothing to do with Nazism, Neo-Nazism or any other "ism" but a symbol used by various other cultures around the world. By doing this, it might defuse any group from seriously freaking out?

[the_handsome_viking]

Everyone knows that the Swastika was used by the Nazis and, as a result, most people equate it with the holocaust (among other negative aspects).

However, the Swastika as a symbol had existed for about 3000 years BEFORE the Nazis appropriated it, and was even used in parts of Europe as a symbol for good luck, life, and strength. It has been found emblazoned on an ancient greek helmet and on a Roman mosaic, and given the symbol's prevalence in India and other eastern countries, it seems logical to assume that the native peoples of the Diadochoi (Baktria, the easternmost segments of AS, etc) would have used it before, during, and after Alexander's conquest and the rule of the Diadochoi. It also seems logical that, if it represented good luck, it would have been used by soldiers as a way of 'protecting' themselves and getting through a war alive (even Viking reconstructionists use a stylized Swastika on their shields) When considered in the context of history, it's only been recently that it's come to represent, at least in the western world, pure evil.

So, my question to the EB team is this: Your units are created using archeological and source-based evidence, so as to give the game more authenticity. However, if a certain unit (or units) of the eastern Diadochoi factions widely used the Swastika as a symbol (or even if western european soldiers used it) on their armour/shields, would you stick to historical accuracy and include it on the unit model? Or do you think it would be more prudent to avoid any controversy (because of its negative connotations in the west) and not include it?

And to the people in the EB forum, my question is: If the symbol was used in the above-mentioned example, SHOULD the EB team include it? Or would the risk of controversy be too great?

And before anyone starts with comments like 'Did you learn that version of history in your monthly neo-nazi meeting?' I'm including three links to three different websites (wikipedia, inevitably, is included) which basically say everything I've said about the symbol's history. The links are below, check them out if you don't believe me (The swastika on the greek helmet and on the Roman mosaic can be found in the pics in the wiki article. You have to click on the greek helmet image, though, if you wanna see it clearly):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swa...ikahistory.htm

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml


On a related note, I'm not starting this topic to start any trouble, encourage trolling, arguments, or controversy. I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. Please believe me that I don't want to start a flame war, or accuse anyone of anything, I just want to know if the EB team would include a symbol equated with Nazism (in the western world) in a game set in a period of time in which Nazis, evidently, did not exist. I'm just basically looking for a bluntly honest answer, really. Nothing more.

One last thing. If this topic has already been brought up and solved, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm new to the forum and to the game, see, so I don't know what's been discussed here before.

Because it would be used for scholarly reasons, the German laws would have nothing against it, infact, I would go as far as to say one would have to be remarkably stupid, uneducated or both to accuse EB of being a stomping ground for national socialists.

That said I do find it somewhat Ironic that manly of the cultures and peoples depicted in EB are by modern standards absolutely worse than the conventional morality that deems the Nazis evil.

But generally speaking theres entirely no reason why the Swastika cant be in the game, National Socialism wasn't around during 300bc.

[macsen rufus]

Personally, I'd love to rehabilitate the swastika from the taint of Nazism and return it to what it once was, a life-affirming symbol of light. However, I don't see the need for a game to be in the forefront of that fight, and I'd rather know the EB team were doing more of their excellent creative work on the mod than wasting time fighting off law-suits, hate mail or whatever. Maybe with EB37.0 release the world may have moved on enough, but not yet. I support the developers in their decision

[Subedei]

Me -being a German- thinks:

- I would not want to confuse the historically correct with the political incorrect. In my eyes it is 2 kinds of shoes. I think all the EB members understood that...Well, most if i recall some minor intelligent posts by a tiny minority of people in the community.

Back to topic: It may well be, that if some random person checks pictures in the web or a parent looks at the screen of little son's monitor...they may think "What the heck?". On a second look every minor intelligent person should get the idea that a half-naked, tunika-pimping and Javelin throwing freak with long hair was not your average Wehrmachts- or SS Übersoldat...in case any existed.

- Besides that: I just outright hate the people wearing the symbol. In fact it is the only category of people i generalize in a negative way...oh, and people chatting and swimming next to each other in crowded public pools, but that's a different story.

- Plus: I just do not like the design....so I don´t wanna/have to have it in the game....