naginata cavalry & samurai archers

[Noir]

NC, the cheapest of the melee cavalry units - how are players using them curently? They are great flankers and less great cavalry skirmishers although they can aid in that other than meleeing and charging shock infantry. I find that flexibility is their main virtue although they suffer in morale/fatigue if overused unlike YC that remain ready all the way due to their "stamina", speed, anti-cavalry bonus and high charge.

Samurai archers cost considerably more than the teppo units, since they can hold their own in melee in some extent (other than resist cavalry charges) and yet in maps without very many trees and in games that go without rain they feel slightly overpriced (taking two is already a lot most of the time).

They are great snippers, defenders against annoying CA (unless the latter are too many), and generally a few trees that take out the need to dedicate spears to their protection aganist cavalry can make them quite effective. Rain can also make them shine, despite the fact that main lines tend to move in against each other during which period the archers are better protected somewhere till the main melee units are broken and fatigued - ther importance increases again in the end game especially if they have arrows left, i find.

They are best guarded IMO by high morale units such as WM and HC as well as spears (spers and SA combo can be swept away by cheap swords as ND and a swift YC raid).

How other SWs players like to use them or if they don't why not?

Noir

[Noir]

If the moderator judges that there is no need for a separate thread for this subject please let me know i can post it in the "game discussion" thread and this one may be closed. I just thought that the "game discussion thread" may again multi-diverge if too many topics are introduced therein.

Noir

[R'as al Ghul]

Let's just see how it develops. I can move or copy the post later if necessary. Anyone reading our subforum will find your thread as well as the other. It could be a good idea to keep it separate as I thought the other one will focus more on team tactics. To add some confusion I'll rename it if other units are also discussed.
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I like Samurai archers but have rarely used Naginata Cav.
The prize for SamArchers is okay I think. Sometimes I wish they'd fight better in melee. They're good flankers and can take out enemy teppos in melee if it comes to that (did that once). It's also nice to have some arrows left when the melee begins. Lowers morale.
One could be mean and choose rain as attacker and only take samarchers for shooters. That's always a possibility and sometimes people gamble for it.

I don't use Nag Cav often, I favor the Yari Cav. But I've seen them put to good use. If I am correct they can even hold WM for quite a while.

[TosaInu]

I use NC when I want a cavalry army (cheap). I use NC when I expect flat terrain and plan to assist my allies far away. I use them when I plan to hit melee infantry (instead of providing anti-cav support).

I use lsam in forrested and hilly terrain. I use archers when I plan/hope to attack in rain. I use them together with teppo, when I want a missilearmy that can do something no matter what the conditions are.

[Puzz3D]

One could be mean and choose rain as attacker and only take samarchers for shooters.

It's not mean. It's something the attacker can do to compensate for the advantages of defending.

I don't use Nag Cav often, I favor the Yari Cav. But I've seen them put to good use. If I am correct they can even hold WM for quite a while.

With a good charge, NC will beat WM.

NC, the cheapest of the melee cavalry units - how are players using them curently? They are great flankers and less great cavalry skirmishers although they can aid in that other than meleeing and charging shock infantry. I find that flexibility is their main virtue although they suffer in morale/fatigue if overused unlike YC that remain ready all the way due to their "stamina", speed, anti-cavalry bonus and high charge.

NC (4 charge bonus + 4 attack = 8) have higher charge than YC (4 charge bonus + 2 attack = 6) against infantry. NC and YC have the same stamina, but YC are 20% faster which means they will incur less fatigue than NC when covering the same distance. NC have higher morale than YC, and higher armor. NC is primarily a direct assault unit while YC is a flanker and anti-cav unit.

Samurai archers cost considerably more than the teppo units, since they can hold their own in melee in some extent (other than resist cavalry charges) and yet in maps without very many trees and in games that go without rain they feel slightly overpriced (taking two is already a lot most of the time).

They are 33% cheaper and have 28% more ammo than in STW, but teppo are 50% cheaper. They are not really cost effective if used to skirmish against teppo, but they can be effective in helping to win a teppo duel. They are also highly cost effective when shooting WM and YC, and to a lesser extent, but still cost effective, ND and CA. Charging an SA/YS combo with an ND is questionable because the SA will inflict heavy losses on the ND and on a WM for that matter.

[Tomisama]

Is there some kind of an advantage for archers (or maybe it's just guns, or maybe all range units), when deployed as defenders and shooting stright north?

[CBR]

Is there some kind of an advantage for archers (or maybe it's just guns, or maybe all range units), when deployed as defenders and shooting stright north?

For bows yes but there should be no advantage for guns. Yuuki and I ran several tests and never saw a difference for guns but bows had sometimes a small and sometimes a big advantage. I think it might have to with wind. It always comes from defenders side(bug?) and varies in strength from battle to battle.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

For bows yes but there should be no advantage for guns. Yuuki and I ran several tests and never saw a difference for guns but bows had sometimes a small and sometimes a big advantage. I think it might have to with wind. It always comes from defenders side(bug?) and varies in strength from battle to battle.

As I recall, it's a 20% advantage for bows when shooting toward the north.

[Tomisama]

How do archers rank as far as causing friendly kills?

Is it safe to allow them to fire from other than front ranks?

Do they do better firing up and down hill, compared to guns?

Is my understanding correct that their volume of fire is not limited by their configuration (line, square, ect.)?

What is their volume and rate of fire?


Thanks in advance.

[Puzz3D]

How do archers rank as far as causing friendly kills?

My recollection of tests that Tosa and I ran during the STW/MI v1.02 beta testing was that 1/3 of the archer's kills were friendly kills when firing into a melee of two units of equal armor.

Is it safe to allow them to fire from other than front ranks?

Yes, but they will have reduced effectiveness on the target unit. This is a reduction in accuracy because the front two archer ranks cannot see the target.

Do they do better firing up and down hill, compared to guns?

Height relative to the target definitely makes a big difference in the performance of archers. It also makes a difference for guns, but perhaps not as much. Occasionally, I've seen guns be quite effective when firing up, but I can't account for it.

Is my understanding correct that their volume of fire is not limited by their configuration (line, square, ect.)?

All the archers in a formation will volley, but the accuracy of the volley depends upon the depth of the formation. In close formation on flat, unobstructed ground, the first two ranks can see the target directly, but accuracy is reduced for the ranks behind the first two ranks. In loose formation, the first three ranks can see the target directly, and accuracy is reduced for the ranks behind the first three ranks. When positioned on a downward slope of sufficient gradient, all ranks can see the target so there is no reduction in accuracy for depth of the formation. When line of sight to the target is obstructed, accuracy is reduced for all ranks. When firing uphill, accuracy is reduced.

What is their volume and rate of fire?

rate of fire = 4 seconds
If the unit is very tired, the volume of fire may be reduced because not all the men are ready to shoot in 4 seconds. This reduced volume of fire due to fatigue happens for guns as well.[/QUOTE]