Fundamental hatred

**Anonymous II** · 10-10-2007, 12:43

The other day, I was visiting a thread where someone playing Russia mentioned that the Poles had a natural hatred towards him.

Is it hardcoded into the game that some nations just "hate" each other no matter what, and that they probably will do a surprise attack even though they are trustworthy and have amiable or better relations? It seems France and England always have to make war. I've tried to keep up good relations playing both factions, but always get caught by a "surprise" attack. Same thing with Portugal/Spain.

If someone holds the answer on this, a list of such hardcoded attitudes would be very welcome.

Me

**The Wizard** · 10-10-2007, 12:46

Well, you know them Poles and Russians...

**PseRamesses** · 10-10-2007, 15:42

Originally Posted by Anonymous II

The other day, I was visiting a thread where someone playing Russia mentioned that the Poles had a natural hatred towards him.

Is it hardcoded into the game that some nations just "hate" each other no matter what, and that they probably will do a surprise attack even though they are trustworthy and have amiable or better relations? It seems France and England always have to make war. I've tried to keep up good relations playing both factions, but always get caught by a "surprise" attack. Same thing with Portugal/Spain.

If someone holds the answer on this, a list of such hardcoded attitudes would be very welcome.

Me

You´ll find them here:
Local drive/Program/M2 folder/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial campaign, look for a txt-file called "descr_strat", double click to open, scroll down to the bottom of the document. Here all setup standings betweens factions are listed. 1.0 meas war and the higher (towards zero) the value the more amiable realtions. So if you do not want to have bad realtions with a certain faction simply change the value to a higher one. Good luck!

**Anonymous II** · 10-10-2007, 17:59

Originally Posted by PseRamesses

1.0 meas war and the higher (towards zero) the value the more amiable realtions. So if you do not want to have bad realtions with a certain faction simply change the value to a higher one. Good luck!

But isn't this just the starting position when you begin a new grand campaign? I'm not asking to change relations here, I'm just wondering why some factions seems to attack despite relations being very good?

I will never edit any files, by the way.

Cheers, mate!

**Monsieur Alphonse** · 10-10-2007, 18:25

Some factions attack because the strategic (military) AI thinks that it is a good idea to attack while the diplomatic AI still wants peace or an alliance. In my Teuton campaign I am allied with the HRE. The relations are good. But I know that the strategic AI of the HRE wants to attack Danzig because they have an army lurking near by waiting to attack.

**Ciaran** · 10-10-2007, 18:55

Indeed. You can have outstanding relations with a faction and still be at war with them. On the other hand, you can have abmyssal relations with another faction and still live peacefully side by side.
Of course being at war with a faction will gradually worsen your relations while being at peace will improve them (on Medium or lower strategy difficulty, on Hard and Very Hard relations will always go down)

**Anonymous II** · 10-10-2007, 20:19

[QUOTE=Monsieur Alphonse]Some factions attack because the strategic (military) AI thinks that it is a good idea to attack while the diplomatic AI still wants peace or an alliance.QUOTE]

But shouldn't this be considered a flaw in the game? I mean, the AI should be considered as one. It is after all one faction, not two seperate entities, with one being a "military-junta" that overrules the political/diplomatic one. Why would I care to paying for better relations with my neighbour if I can't rely on this agreement being true?

**Zenicetus** · 10-10-2007, 21:53

It seems that many factions might be hard-wired to have one or more provinces as a "must have" target. If you're sitting on one of those, they'll be hard to hold off with pure diplomacy. The AI will also aim for the softest neighboring province as a path for expansion, so if you don't reinforce your borders you'll get invaded, regardless of diplomatic status. You're just presenting too juicy a target.

We learned in discussion about the upcoming Empire that the current TW strategy engine is split between a military AI and a diplomatic AI, and they often have conflicting goals. That's supposed to be unified in Empire, but it does explain why you'll get invaded if the military AI is hot for territory, regardless of what the diplomatic AI would like to do.

**Anonymous II** · 10-10-2007, 22:30

Originally Posted by Zenicetus

It seems that many factions might be hard-wired to have one or more provinces as a "must have" target. If you're sitting on one of those, they'll be hard to hold off with pure diplomacy. The AI will also aim for the softest neighboring province as a path for expansion...

Aha! So it's more of having easy targets and/or desirable provinces, than being a certain faction. Hope you're right, because that is easier to cope with.

**Riadach** · 10-11-2007, 01:52

I don't think it was unusual for diplomats to think one way, and generals to think another, or for their actions to contradict eachother. Hawks and doves as they say.

**imnothere** · 10-11-2007, 03:25

it is true - playing as English, no matter what i did, (for example, i practically save the sad nation of France from HRE is several "Waterloo" type battles all by myself), France eventually turn against me.

nevertheless, i feels that the emphesis is not on diplomacy but WAR. diplomats are there to smooth-talk trades, bribes and non-agression. after all the trade talks, my diplomat feel rather redundant, except for exploring maps, due to other fractions being difficult. the only useful ally is the Pope for the pope-o-meter and one diplomat usually hang around rome to keep his-hatness happy. otherwise, my diplomats ... well... just not needed.

**Ciaran** · 10-11-2007, 18:22

I am entering the regions of speculations, but the agressiveness between factions may - in part! - be due to the victory conditions, namely if there are specific regions a faction has to hold. But, as I said, that is merely speculative.

**Viking** · 10-11-2007, 18:53

The AI is simply flawed/over-aggressive. No matter what you, do it'll backstab you and break the alliance as soon as you share borders.

**icek** · 10-11-2007, 20:46

Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

Well, you know them Poles and Russians...

Know what? In that time they cooperated in some occasions.

**Anonymous II** · 10-11-2007, 22:09

Originally Posted by Viking

The AI is simply flawed/over-aggressive. No matter what you, do it'll backstab you and break the alliance as soon as you share borders.

Yep, it seems best to send your princesses and diplomats as far away as possible if you want a reliable ally/friend.

**TevashSzat** · 10-12-2007, 03:42

The AI factions are usually aggressive towards the victory conditions of their short campaign: ie, if the short wants you to defeat x and y when playing Milan, Milan AI will be more aggressive towards x and y in a grand campaign usually.