Facing up to my own racism

[Banquo's Ghost]

I've always tried to acknowledge my innate racism and work on overcoming it. I was born into an incredibly privileged, entirely white family of impeccable pedigree so apart from an odd encounter with an over-zealous policeman during the Troubles, I have never faced any kind of exclusion. It also means that people of colour and/or separate religion were quite foreign to me until early adulthood.

The other day, I was travelling on one of Mr Branson's fine locomotive engines in the UK, and as I sat down, I noticed a young man of Middle eastern extraction sitting quietly reading his Koran. My unbidden immediate thought was one of concern - what was his purpose, was he an extremist, perhaps the train was in danger? My second thought was scarcely less unfair, though born of some degree of shame - why would he provoke me (supposedly a fair, liberal minded sort of fellow) into such outrageous suspicion by openly reading his holy book? Did he not know that I (we?) might be made anxious?

I am ashamed of such foolishness, but acknowledge why such thoughts occur. In the same way, I can see that when I encounter a group of coloured youths, even in daytime, I react with much more concern and anxiety than an equivalent group of white youths.

In the event, I was able to strike up a conversation with the fellow on the train and I took the opportunity to discuss my thoughts. He was unsurprised, and said that he was not going to be intimidated from his studies by possible suspicions - good for him - and further argued that my reactions were not entirely my own fault, but had been engendered by the actions of some of his co-religionists. I'm not so sure.

We are conditioned by our upbringing and by our experiences - but to what extent do we have to take responsibilities for our own prejudices? And how best to defeat them? How might we address this without losing the cultural values that define us as well - diversity being a good thing in my book. Is interaction and dialogue the sole solution, or does one have to dig deeper into one's soul?

[econ21]

Is interaction and dialogue the sole solution, or does one have to dig deeper into one's soul?

I think interaction is a big part of it. The more fanciful forms of racism (e.g. "the guy with a turban may be a suicide bomber..." "the person of that colour may be a mugger" etc) tend to be most prevalent in places without much experience of the "other". Where different ethnic groups rub shoulders, any racism tends to be more mundane and akin to the tensions experienced in any close relationship, such as a marriage (e.g. "why are they so loud/messy/talking our jobs, houses/ not doing the washing up etc"). Working in a university where you mix with folk from around the world, most racist generalisations (and sexist and every other kind of non-PC bigotry) just run contrary to my everyday experience.

However, I suspect we do have racist ideas lurking in our subconscious, ready to jump out in a stressful situation - sort of like baser instincts (rather like flight or fight responses, primal desires or fears etc). Digging deeper - or at least exposing them to the cold light of reason - is helpful here. I mean the chances of anyone sitting next to a suicide bomber in a train are so low, you'd be better off worrying about lightning. (Yes, I know James Woods did sit next to the 9/11 bombers on a plane and even reported them to the FBI, but people do get hit by lightning too.)

[Fragony]

You are a human being don't be so hard on yourselve. Black is not a different kind of white, when something is 'different' you notice nothing wrong with that. Didn't made you so anxious to withold you from having a chat, what's the problem.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I just reason as follows: race is not causally tied to any negative trait, therefore racism is irrational.

[caravel]

We're all innately racist, and some of the most racist people I have ever met have been of black, hispanic or Asian origin - this is not an 'ism restricted only to whites, far from it.

I would also cross the road or take a different route if I was walking towards a group black youths. On such an occasion I wouldn't like to take the chance in being all liberal and politically correct.

Unfortunately the social conditioning we're subjected to via the media on a daily basis works itself into our subconsciousness. A person may think that they're above such things but it does get under your skin.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think we are all inately more warry of people the more different they are from us. There's nothing really wrong with that, so long as we realise that it's an instinctive reaction rather than a reasoned one.

The Asian Muslim didn't make you uncomfortable just because he's Asian or Muslim but because he's different. Had he been a white Muslim or an Asian Christian you likely would have been more comfortable.

Having said that, the current geo-politcal situation and religious tensions in the world are going to start tripping alarms in the back of your head.

[Megalos]

I've always tried to acknowledge my innate racism and work on overcoming it. I was born into an incredibly privileged, entirely white family of impeccable pedigree so apart from an odd encounter with an over-zealous policeman during the Troubles, I have never faced any kind of exclusion. It also means that people of colour and/or separate religion were quite foreign to me until early adulthood.

I'm not sure if the highlighted opinion is your's or not but if it is your own, until you learn that there is no Pedigree, and that every man is born equal regardless of wealth etc, there is no hope for you losing your prejudices.

We are conditioned by our upbringing and by our experiences - but to what extent do we have to take responsibilities for our own prejudices?

By aportioning blame for who we are on our forebears has no legitimacy at all. There is certainly alot of propaganda/education out there for one to form his own opinion.

And how best to defeat them? How might we address this without losing the cultural values that define us as well -

It depends on what you perceive as a "cultural value".

-diversity being a good thing in my book.

Not sure what you mean entirely. This can be either taken as very contradictory (you think diversity is a good thing like being slightly racist which in essence is opposing diversity), or very enlightened (you have seen the error of your way's and now see diversity in everthing as a good thing).

Is interaction and dialogue the sole solution, or does one have to dig deeper into one's soul?

Well until you can engage in dialogue like you did with the man on the train, and see that for the most part your fears are baseless, there isn't much point in searching one's self for something that is not yet apparent.



Sorry for disecting your post, but there are many things I needed to clear up in my own head regarding your post as well as seeing where you are coming from.


No insults or hurt intended here on my part friend.


Mega

[Husar]

I have such thoughts as well Banquo, at least since some guys wanted to blow up a train that goes through Cologne and I am now using that route about every two weeks. But then I also wonder whether other people might think I could have a bomb in my really big coffer.
No, I'm white, very white, but still.
I think it's just that they look different, I'm not really worried but they get a bit of extra attention at times, even without reading a holy book. Sometimes it's enough if they're female.

In the end though, I treat them like everybody else, my thoughts or feelings about someone are subject to rational testing before they dictate my actions and I have to say I've had a lot worse thoughts which I acted on than "he might be a suicide bomber".

[naut]

I was born into an incredibly privileged, entirely white family of impeccable pedigree

This may be a bit off topic, but even without saying that, I got the sense you were by your use of the humankind collective "one", it's very typical of men who are middle-class to upper-class.

But, on topic, I think the fact you stopped and did a double take shows that you are in fact liberal. The fact you questioned your first, instinctive/"gut felling", shows strong rationality. Because, emotions are the default response to situations, they are universally human.

I can't really say how I'd respond though.

[Lemur]

[The guy on the train] argued that my reactions were not entirely my own fault, but had been engendered by the actions of some of his co-religionists. I'm not so sure.

What's not to be sure about? You wouldn't flip your pancake if a Hindu were reading Vedas, or if a Buddhist were reading the Abhidharma Pitaka, or if a Jew were reading the Torah.

Let's put it another way: If albino men had been responsible for major atrocities worldwide, would you be a racist for reacting with caution when you ran into an albino male? Even knowing that only a small percentage of them were fanatical killers?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, because Albinos are genetic, Islam is a choice of religion.

Bad example Lemur.

A better one would be, "Would you feel nervous around Mormans if they had been responsible for atrocities worldwide, or vegetarians, or Republicans."

[Samurai Waki]

I completely understand where you're coming from BG. I didn't really get out into the real world until about five years ago, and I have rubbed into the shoulders of a lot of people I'm still unsure about. Actually one of the best learning experiences I had as an adult recently before we moved, is Ms. Waki and I took our kids to the park, and a Muslim couple were there playing with their little boy. The Boy took off, and they became very concerned because they couldn't find him (he was playing in the sandbox) So I went up to the boy and said "I think you're parents are looking for you" and I took him over to them. They were both very grateful (the mother was practically in tears) and I think I realized at that point that aside from culture or religion, that everybody basically has the same fears and instincts, and this couple probably wants the same out of life as the Wife and I do. Weird example I know. But just thought I'd bring it up.

[macsen rufus]

Is interaction and dialogue the sole solution, or does one have to dig deeper into one's soul?

A bit of both, IMHO. I think a certain amount of distrust of the 'other' is a natural by-product of us (ie humans) being social animals. Being social means identifying with a group, however subliminally. Where there is an in-group, there is an out-group. It may be people of different skin colour, different beliefs, or those who just live at the wrong end of the street. As with any instinctive behaviour it is not rational, and a bit of self-awareness and a willingness to examine one's irrational feelings (both of which you exhibit in spades, BTW ) are all to the good. It's where such feelings are mixed with resentment and unthinkingly turned into an ethos that the real problems begin. But dialogue and interaction are keys to expanding the boundaries of the "in-group", and goes hand in hand with the realisation that people are individuals and represent themselves more than any group they may happen to belong to. "I treat as I find" is a good rule of thumb.

Now my "working" day is over and I must cut and run, sorry...

[Husar]

A better one would be, "Would you feel nervous around Mormans if they had been responsible for atrocities worldwide, or vegetarians, or Republicans."

or cannibals?

[Fragony]

or cannibals?

If all cultures are equal cannibalism is just a matter of taste

[Lorenzo_H]

If all cultures are equal cannibalism is just a matter of taste

Ha ha ha

Fragony where do these brilliantly witty comments come from?

[Fragony]

Ha ha ha

Fragony where do these brilliantly witty comments come from?

From Daniel Pearl this one, so, from an oister, sort of a clam. But don't we all?

[IrishArmenian]

We're all racist. Racism is just a personal demon we have to keep fighting but pretending it doesn't exist exacerbates the problem.

[ajaxfetish]

Let me take a moment to join the ranks of the guilty. Like you, BG, I was brought up in an upper middle class family in a very white city (though in Utah rather than Ireland). My family puts great store in reason and the intellectual life, and at least rationally we are very open and accepting of other cultures, races, etc. However, I notice little subconscious racist thoughts coming through both in other family members, such as my father, and in myself (not malicious, but somewhat contemptuous). As a Mormon missionary in southern California I was much more exposed to other races and classes, most poor blacks, hispanics, Asians, and Pacific Islanders. It was a very eye-opening experience for me, but I still retain that subtle subconscious racism, overridden when reason steps in, but instinctually present. It's not a proud or worthy thing, but valuable to recognize nonetheless. Thank you for the thread.

Ajax

[AntiochusIII]

Just to chime in, let it be said that this is far from a white condition in particular, but rather an arguably universal human one. Why do I say that? Because I'm not white; I'm sure you can take it from there...

I agree with Banquo's Ghost and many others in this thread. We are all racists deep inside somewhere, at some level. The real danger is not realizing this, but rather not realizing it, or succumbing to it. In all of us, The Dark Side is.

How do I deal with that? By recognizing this attitude in myself and others, and confront myself internally, refusing to let racism influence any of my decisions, conscious or unconscious. I notice some posts above me where the poster said that he will not risk danger by trying to be "politically correct"; well, it's the person's decision, but I promise myself to try otherwise.

To move from the theoretical to an anecdote, instead of using the usual black examples (that I have to use the word "usual" indicates quite a level of racism existing still in my opinion), I'd use a different example.

Two years ago I was invited as a student representative from my high school to a high-class event where I will meet a writer who came to the "society" to give speeches, have a meal, and all that. It was a gathering of, I think, the ultra-rich. I realized right away that, like the writer herself, I was really out of place there. These people -- that is to say, rich white old people, with a lot of old women mixed in (I'm sexist too!? lol) -- I felt that they fell into the stereotype of false, empty, and arrogant rich people are often viewed at. I can, of course, defend that judgment by my observations of the party itself. When the writer gave speech, they listened politely, clapped politely, and asked stupid questions. My teacher (I respect this guy very much by the way, he's very very intelligent and sensible) said as an aside to me that none of them probably read her [the guest writer's] book. And I also observed as I sat quietly with a group of them in their idle chatter ("my son went to so-and-so and brought back this so-and-so tea; it's wonderful!") and their false concern ("I got a stroke not too long ago/ Oh, my dear, how horrible!"). Needless to say I was disgusted, justified as I was by a very strong conviction that the Rich really deserves the Guillotine of the Revolution, with their class-inspired arrogance and their senselessness.

When I look back now however I feel that I have judged very harshly those people's natures. Sure, I still stand by the original judgment that these are idle people, but who isn't? If they're vain, then so are the rest of the world. And if they move around in masks of polite condescension, why, even the very poor have their own versions [think social taboos among geeks, the fashion world, and just about everywhere else]. That's not even counting that I'm generalizing an entire group of people with one, vicious, broad stroke of philosophical disgust.

It was, I think, racism (white), a gap of age (old), class conflict (rich, "aristocratic"), and all sorts of other -isms mixed into one, all of which essentially refers to the same idea of "us" and "them."

It is imperative, in my opinion, to treat individuals as they are and not as members of a group. And the only way to do so is recognizing the "us" and "them" mentality built into my very own self.

P.S. All respects to Banquo's Ghost for giving us all one of the best threads to ever grace the Backroom in a long while.

[PanzerJaeger]

In the event, I was able to strike up a conversation with the fellow on the train and I took the opportunity to discuss my thoughts. He was unsurprised, and said that he was not going to be intimidated from his studies by possible suspicions - good for him - and further argued that my reactions were not entirely my own fault, but had been engendered by the actions of some of his co-religionists. I'm not so sure.

What aren't you sure about?

Are your anxieties not a direct result of muslim extremism in your own nation and around the world?

It is certainly not racism to be alert and aware when you see a you see a young muslim reading a koran on public transit.

That doesn't mean one should act on those anxieties without further prompts, but to blind oneself to one's surroundings is stupid.

[JAG]

Banquo, nice thread.

We certainly are not all inherently racist, there is not some racist gene or some racist trigger in all our minds which is switched on from birth and has to be gradually thrust in the opposite direction during life. Racism is prevalent in some people and non existent in others, that fact alone should be proof enough to dispel a universal human nature to be racist. Sure, say until you are blue in the face that people 'really deep down inside' are racist, but that seems a pretty weak argument. You might fear you are personally a little racist 'deep down inside' but it is not right or fair to state that everyone else is. Ghandi? A racist for sure. Deep down he just hated the whites. It is not a sound argument to state that we all have racism within us, racism is created through society and culture, not because all of us are racist.

Experience and interation with different people is the biggest factor I think in what people think of other people, same colour or not. Some of the most racist people - think where the BNP is strongest in the UK for instance - are in the areas where there is most interaction with opposite cultures. It is not simply that if you live in an all white area you are more likely to be racist and if you live in a mixed area the opposite is true. It is the type of experiences you have with other people and the type of upbringing and values you hold which are really the defining factors. Not to mention the many other factors which you hold dear to you at any specific time in your life.

It is quite possible for someone to go through the majority of their life without an ill thought to any race or person based on race, however if something in their life happens - say an attack by a group of black youths or even a feeling that in their late stage of life they are unhappy with it - the person could quite easily turn into someone who starts to act in a racist manner. We all know the old cliche about the old, bitter man, hurt by the life he has lead and the mistakes within it and instead of blaming the person who made the choices in his life - himself - he blames other people - including other races.

Racism isn't something that appears at birth by human nature and only goes away when you see a black man be nice, or any other silly notion like that, it is experience and values, throughout life.

And Banquo, in your situation I think things like the media and their portrayal of muslims and Islam and the 'great terrorist threat' we are told by our politicians - of all nations - time and again by, must have an effect on many people. Maybe it just helped you pop that thought into your head, who knows, there is probably many reasons. But the fact is you faced up to them in your head and presumably now you feel happier with yourself. :)

[IrishArmenian]

Jag, the point is: its human nature to be afraid of/dislike differences.
The goal is to rid oneself of those fears/dislikes.
Hell, I've never bought into the Islamist extremist fear/stereotyping but other ones, rest assured, used to be prevalent in my mind.

[AntiochusIII]

PanzerJager: lol. Did you notice the part where our dangerous terrorist train-bombing scum most understandingly discusses Banquo's reaction with such a conciliatory attitude?

He should be shot, right? Like them UK police did to some poor Brazilian (?) guy a while back?

JAG: [He's alive!?] Racism doesn't necessarily means BNP-style racial hatred. No, it can be something much less harmful, much smaller, most of the time not even noticeable: the choice of our friends, the attraction, the extra wariness one gives to an unfamiliar person with a different color of skin, the stereotyping...

It can be obvious: "black people are dirty!/ look at that white gangsta-wannabe, he shouldn't even try/ all Asians like videogames, don't you like videogames? etc." Or it can be subtle; it can even be subconscious most of the time.

I think these are the racisms that Banquo & co., me included, are talking about, the kind of thing a normal person must confront; not the Kill-all-Jews fascist style racism.

One could call it prejudice, or any other name. It's the same mentality that -- I think, since I don't exactly speak for everyone -- whatever names it's called, is an inner devil in all but the very few humans.

Specific appearances of racism can be seen from cultural and societal issues, true, but the underlying mentality I'd say is rather indisputably universal.

[PanzerJaeger]

PanzerJager: lol. Did you notice the part where our dangerous terrorist train-bombing scum most understandingly discusses Banquo's reaction with such a conciliatory attitude?

He should be shot, right? Like them UK police did to some poor Brazilian (?) guy a while back?

Not the point at all.

Here it is more directly...

Recently, there have been many terrorist attacks across the globe, including several in the UK, perpetrated by young, religious, muslim men. Many of these attacks have been carried out on public transit.

Therefore, being slightly alerted when seeing a young muslim reading a koran on a train is not so much a sign of ingrained racism, but a reaction to recent events, and is not a bad thing. Being aware of your surroundings is never a bad thing.

I, of course, did not say he needed to shoot the guy..

[JAG]

Jag, the point is: its human nature to be afraid of/dislike differences.
The goal is to rid oneself of those fears/dislikes.
Hell, I've never bought into the Islamist extremist fear/stereotyping but other ones, rest assured, used to be prevalent in my mind.

How is it human nature to be afraid of / dislike differences? I haven't read that manual on the human brain, obviously. The point I would make is, not only can you not prove that but it simply is not the case. Look around you, walk down the street, you will see an instance of someone not giving two hoots about racial difference. Why can't it be human nature to embrace difference? What is the difference between them which is so significant? What is so significant about about the dislike of difference which means it is some form of super universal value? There is no such thing as any value universal in humans, and you can't prove otherwise.

Antioch - yes I am alive, just been, er, living I guess you could call it ;)

the prejudice you talk of, how can it be universal when you yourself doubt it in the very same post.

whatever names it's called, is an inner devil in all but the very few humans.

It can't be universal if it is in 'all but the very few'.

Furthermore the examples you give, fine some people may say that, but do all? That 'gangsta wannabe' you point out, has he got this prejudice, even though he is a 'white guy' 'acting' like a 'black guy'?

And if it is prejudice you talk of, why does it have to be connected to race at all? Surely if it is merely prejudice and weary beliefs people hold you are on about, why be connected to race at all. Surely the same kind of thing happens when some people might think of an old person sitting behind the wheel of a car - 'oh they are going to drive slow and be terrible' - or for that matter what some people might think of a white, skin headed youngster behind the wheel - 'oh he is going to drive crazy'. What it sounds like you are hinting at is not prejudice based on anything, merely stereotypes and prejudice in general. Nothing you state in your post explains why this has to be a merely racial thing.

And stereotyping or this kind of prejudice again merely comes from society and culture, not by some human nature present in every human. I fail to see the point you put across.

[Lemur]

Racism isn't something that appears at birth by human nature and only goes away when you see a black man be nice, or any other silly notion like that, it is experience and values, throughout life.

Tribalism is something we're born with, and it is an essential part of human nature. We are social animals. That has consequences. Racism is just an extension of tribalism; for us to be in the tribe, others must be defined out. Skin color is just one of many stupid ways we humans have of expressing this.

Time, education and experience can dull the more counter-productive aspects of tribalism, but we've all got it in our bones. To argue otherwise is to deny our heritage and reality.

I also don't see why people are jumping on PJ's comment. I thought it was perfectly fair. I also think the Islamic gentleman on the train handled the situation with grace and aplomb, based on BG's description.

[JAG]

Not the point at all.

Here it is more directly...

Recently, there have been many terrorist attacks across the globe, including several in the UK, perpetrated by young, religious, muslim men. Many of these attacks have been carried out on public transit.

Therefore, being slightly alerted when seeing a young muslim reading a koran on a train is not so much a sign of ingrained racism, but a reaction to recent events, and is not a bad thing. Being aware of your surroundings is never a bad thing.

I, of course, did not say he needed to shoot the guy..

Here is it more directly...

Recently, there have been many attacks across the globe, including several in Iraq, perpetrated by young, religious, Christian men. Many of these attacks have been carried out on public transit.

Therefore, being slightly alerted when seeing a young Christian toting a gun on a tank is not so much a sign of ingrained terrorism, but a reaction to recent events, and is not a bad thing. Being aware of your surroundings is never a bad thing.

I, of course, did not say he needed to shoot the guy..

[Fragony]

Hmmm, sounds like Jag left his tower and had a slice of life

[JAG]

Tribalism is something we're born with, and it is an essential part of human nature. We are social animals. That has consequences. Racism is just an extension of tribalism; for us to be in the tribe, others must be defined out. Skin color is just one of many stupid ways we humans have of expressing this.

Time, education and experience can dull the more counter-productive aspects of tribalism, but we've all got it in our bones. To argue otherwise is to deny our heritage and reality.

As I have said many times here, I do not believe in human nature and it would take one hell of a lot of convincing to make me change my mind. People do not have universal moral and ethical values and actions, it cannot be proved and is not the case. People make their own damn minds up based on a number of things, including experience and surroundings.

Tribalism, what is that? Can you even define it in a way to apply it to all humans throughout time? And if so, how can racism then be an extention of it?