A Newcomer's Questions on Prices

[Landwalker]

Howdy, all. I'm quite the Europa Barbarorum neophyte (as in, I found it/downloaded it yesterday), and since I wasn't able to find a thread resembling "Why we did what we did," I was hoping I could throw a question or two out there and that somebody would be able to provide the answers.

(1) Primarily, I've noticed that everything is awfully expensive, both in terms of recruitment cost (or building cost for structures) and in terms of upkeep. As far as I can tell, there weren't any modifications made to the economic model for the game, so the player's ability to make money hasn't increased alongside these prices. Given the extreme attention to detail in the game, I'm sure there's an excellent reason for all of this--I just have no idea what it is.

(2) I've noticed a couple of mentions, while puttering around here, that EB is only balanced for Medium battle difficulty level. Given my ignorance of the effects of changing the difficulty levels (both for battle and for the campaign map), I don't really know what to make of this. Does increasing battle difficulty do nothing more than increase the statistical abilities of the AI units, or does it have any effect on the use of sound tactics during the battle? Parallel to that, although hardly restricted to EB, does changing the campaign map difficulty only affect AI finances and belligerence, or does it also impact strategy?

(3) Finally, I've seen a couple of questions about triggering reforms and the like, but they were clearly being asked by people with a greater working knowledge of what was (or might be) required than I am. Is there anything resembling a "manual" for the game where this and other such information might be found? If not, would anybody be willing to explain to me to requirements for the Polybian, Marian, and Augustan reforms?

Cheers.

[Admetos]

1. This helps to balance the game and make it more challenging. In vanilla, it was far too easy to make heaps of money, and the spend it on stacks and stacks of units, in EB, you have to work for this.

2. Increasing battle difficulty gives the enemy units bonuses (something like +4 attack and defense, although I can't remember exactly), thus if you increase difficulty, the game becomes un-balanced and un-historical.

3.

[bovi]

2) The tactics of the AI are not affected by battle difficulty, no.

[konny]

Does increasing battle difficulty do nothing more than increase the statistical abilities of the AI units, or does it have any effect on the use of sound tactics during the battle?

Unfortuantly, the battle stupidity of the AI is hardcoded.

[Bootsiuv]

Is there anything resembling a "manual" for the game where this and other such information might be found?

There will be, although it is likely still a few months off. (considering 1.0 hasn't even come out yet )

[Landwalker]

There will be, although it is likely still a few months off. (considering 1.0 hasn't even come out yet )

Heh, yes, I noticed that yesterday. An awfully inconvenient time for someone to get newly interested in a mod, isn't it? What with a new, overhauled, non-beta version right around the corner (and yet, infuriatingly, without a definite date), it's a constant battle between putting it off until the new release which could be anywhere between this evening and at some indefinite future point, and diving into the beta version, risking making just enough progress to be horribly frustrated at starting over when the new release is out.

Oh, the quandaries.

Cheers.

[Admetos]

EB hasn't been a beta since the release of 0.80. Thats exactly the reason the new release is name 1.0 instead of 0.9, people thinking its still a beta and not trying it out. I find the current version to be the most stable mod I've played.

[Landwalker]

Ah, I see. A bit of misinformation gleaned from my wanders around the forums, incomplete unit cards, and the like. Thanks for the correction.

Which in turn makes me wonder what the differences will be with 1.0, but I'm sure I will encounter those in their own time.

Cheers.

[Admetos]

Do a forum search for "all previews in one thread". There you can see the previews leading up to the release of 1.0, and any other preview for that matter, that aren't stickied at the moment. This should show you the improvement.

[Bootsiuv]

Which is vast, to say the least!!

Not that I don't encourage playing .8x....it's an excellent mod, even without all of the great new features this latest release will add.

If you've got hi-speed it only takes a little while to DL, although you may want to reinstall R:TW and start fresh when 1.0 comes out.

In the end, the choice is yours, but .8x is very fun....

[Landwalker]

Indeed--I've already downloaded .81somethingorother, but I haven't had much time with it yet due to course requirements and the whole writing-a-one-hundred-page-paper thing. Hopefully in a day or two I'll be able to get at it for more than thirty minutes, hence why I wanted to clear up my earlier questions (sparked not just by unit costs, but by the "extensive port upgrades" ringing in at several tens of thousands of minae, for example). Once I'm able to tackle it more extensively, though, it looks like it should be very enjoyable.

Cheers.

[Bootsiuv]

Well, some port upgrades are extensively expensive because no natural harbor existed in these regions, so, if the inhabitants wanted a large port facility, it would have been man made.

Regions with natural harbors offer much more affordable ports.

[Watchman]

...but by the "extensive port upgrades" ringing in at several tens of thousands of minae, for example.

Oh, those just represent the completely crazy amounts of work and expenses incurred - since you're pretty much "landscaping" a major portage into existence where Momma Nature and Daddy Geology hadn't seen fit make one.

AFAIK historically such projects were something only Emperors and similar seriously powerful people started on, somewhere along the lines of the Great Wall of China or the Red Sea canals.

[Landwalker]

Ah, I see. I just remember seeing the "Extensive Small Port Upgrade" (or some such) in Ariminum (or Arretium, I don't remember... the one on the coast of the Tyrrhenian, not Adriatic, Sea), and the "Extensive Large Port Upgrade" in Capua, which were something on the order of 36,000 and 96,000 minae, respectively, and take approximately forever (rounded to the nearest eon) to build. Obviously, playing for only a half hour, I didn't have the money for this, so I don't know how much of an impact these have on the province's trade income, but it certainly... jarred me, to say the least. I haven't quite caught on to evaluating the suitability of a particular province for a port (or anything else it might need to be suitable for), so things like this still catch me off guard.

Cheers.

[Bootsiuv]

One of the several delightful, although at first confusing, surprises that await you in the world of EB (hence my plan to do a manual for new players).

I hope you like looking at your computer screen, because your going to be doing it A LOT over the next few weeks. This, I assure you.

[bovi]

Some of the various messages gained when building these upgrades:

We have upgraded our trading port. It cost a freaking ton of money to do it though. It better be worth the wait too. But it's not like we had something better to do, sitting around the seashore all day, counting rocks.

We have spent an enormous amount of time and money in upgrading this port. With the amount of silver we spent to upgrade this place, you could have bought a lot of soldiers. We hope you have made a wise decision, because if don't have enough men to defend this city, I'm not going to be the one to take the blame.

I thought spending that amount of money on these port improvements was daft, but it's finally finished. If some more money doesn't start flowing through those nice new port harbor gates, someone's going to be in big trouble. And it ain't going to be me.

Oh gods! When will the hubris of man end?! We have spent unholy amounts of gold on building this new port upgrade. I only hope our people are still alive by the time we should be expected to make up the money on this project. I'll probably be dead by then though. And my son will probably be paying off his gambling debts as a slave in some Roman leathermaking shop. Woe is me!

This might give a perspective on the costs involved.

[Bootsiuv]

LOL....I must admit, I've never built the man made ports, the natural ones are just sooo much more affordable....

Those are some entertaining mssgs, to say the least!

[Landwalker]

I believe it. Unfortunately I have a strange compulsion to gain as much money as possible (not so I can spend it on soldiers, though, which is why it is strange. I routinely have hundreds of thousands of denarii within 20-30 turns in Rome: Total Realism, because I do virtually nothing but build up economic infrastructure and hoard my gold. Thankfully, it means I can, and do, bribe any rebel army that happens to stir up trouble.), which eventually means the ridiculous port upgrades are going to get built. Once I get the hang of spending money, rather than amassing vast wealth and only spending it for the purposes of amassing more wealth, I'm sure I'll be fine and have the willpower to resist the urge to build those outrageous upgrades.

Cheers.

[Bootsiuv]

I don't know about R:TR, but you won't have several 100,000 mnai in the first 30 turns in EB....no way in hell.

The enemy factions also have monetary boni, so there going to come at you quicker and stronger than you might be used to, and they don't let up until you take or destroy their core.

EB runs on scripts, and this can change many things.

[Landwalker]

I don't know about R:TR, but you won't have several 100,000 mnai in the first 30 turns in EB....no way in hell.
...
EB runs on scripts, and this can change many things.

Indeed...my limited experience so far has definitely proven that amassing vast wealth will be, if not utterly impossible, certainly extremely difficult and probably far slower to achieve. Hopefully that will break my preoccupation with purely economic development and encourage me to build some armies. And raid and pillage and all that good stuff.

I'm not familiar with the script-based running of, well, anything, let alone EB. Aside from things like seasonal penalties, armies getting bored while laying siege, and the like, what does this change in terms of the fundamental experiences? (Note: If this has an obvious or easily-located answer, just slap me. I'm in the middle of reading Procopius and am frankly too lazy to wander around the rest of the forums, so I'll freely admit I'm just hoping you folks will be generous enough to offer the answers.)

Cheers.

[mcantu]

Indeed...my limited experience so far has definitely proven that amassing vast wealth will be, if not utterly impossible, certainly extremely difficult and probably far slower to achieve. Hopefully that will break my preoccupation with purely economic development and encourage me to build some armies. And raid and pillage and all that good stuff.

I'm not familiar with the script-based running of, well, anything, let alone EB. Aside from things like seasonal penalties, armies getting bored while laying siege, and the like, what does this change in terms of the fundamental experiences? (Note: If this has an obvious or easily-located answer, just slap me. I'm in the middle of reading Procopius and am frankly too lazy to wander around the rest of the forums, so I'll freely admit I'm just hoping you folks will be generous enough to offer the answers.)

Cheers.

Its definitely possible with the larger factions. I'm running a Carthage campaign right now and have 100,000+ in the treasury in the year 232

[Tellos Athenaios]

If you want to get used to EB's pricing system without immediately risking the loss of your campaign by gambling to much on some improvement; you could start as:
a) The Romani
b) Qartadastim
c) Ptolemaioi

With a through c listed by difficulty. (Ptolemaioi will require you to wage war to one of the larges and most powerful factions of the world; the others don't and the Romani have the benefit of a coherent state rather than some tidbits here and there. Plus the unique way in which the Romani governemnt system works means that you don't have to understand that very much for the first 30 turns or so.)

If you've acquired some more familiarity with the pricing side it's a good thing to look at some weaker startin positions.
Your best bet would be KH, Makedonia; or Epeiros.

When you think those are almost too easy, you could make the leap for some of the virtually/competely landlocked factions (land-trade yields far less income than sea-trade; and that's hardcoded nothing we can do about it really); finally if you've mastered the art of surviving with factions such as Aedui or Arverni; or Getai you could go up to factions such as Casse, Pontos, Baktria or Hayasdan who are in an even thougher position.

And when you think --wow I can make serious money in EB, no matter what!; we have the Saka and Sauromatae to disprove you.

[Redmeth]

Carthage is easier IMO if you want to win the campaign the Romans have to conquer a lot more territory and fight a lot more battles so they're not that easy...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Oh, but this was merely about getting a firm economy established. And I think that a coherent border makes such things a tad easier. And of course the Romans can immediately recruit their elite most units; Carthage has a bit more building from scratch to do.

[Primus Inter Duces]

Indeed...my limited experience so far has definitely proven that amassing vast wealth will be, if not utterly impossible, certainly extremely difficult and probably far slower to achieve. Hopefully that will break my preoccupation with purely economic development and encourage me to build some armies. And raid and pillage and all that good stuff.

Maybe, maybe not. My Aedui campaign took forever (about 15 years ~ 60 turns) to get out of the red and start making a decent profit. It turns out sacking Greece as the Aedui is quite profitable. My barbarian bean-counters even razed the Acropolis

More recently as Pontos, I've been swimming in cash since conquering Anatolia and the Levant, despite the upkeep costs of several full stack armies and battalions of spies. If I recall correctly, I was only in debt from 271-269. Those mines and ports really rake in the dough.

And when you think --wow I can make serious money in EB, no matter what!; we have the Saka and Sauromatae to disprove you.

I'm going to have to take up the Saka gauntlet in 1.0

[Bootsiuv]

@Redmeth

Yes, but the war with the Romani is going to be tough for the Carthaginian player, no matter when the '1st Punic War' begins. The Romani's unit roster, while (arguably) lacking the punch of Qarthadastim elite forces, is overall much better IMO.

@Landwalker

Don't take my statemenst to mean that you can never amass wealth in EB. It is indeed quite possible to become wealthy, it just isn't going to happen right away.

Most factions place you in a position where your forced to disband most of your troops or begin conquering straight away to avoid falling majorly in debt.

Once the economic hurdle is overcome, however, you can amass great wealth if you so choose.

Personally I think that money is better spent than just sitting there, but that's just me.

[Landwalker]

Oh, I agree that the money is better spent than sitting around. But I'm crazy. I don't spend it, or spend very little of it except to get more of it. Maybe in the back of my head I think that once I have a virtually unlimited amount of money, I can simply snap my fingers, create a super-army, and roll over the remainder of my foes. I generally take a very minimalist approach to all strategy games--ensure a bustling economy and then accomplish my objectives with the absolute least amount of expenditures (fewest possible units, etc.). Even when rolling in dough, I counterintuitively only train the smallest number of soldiers I think I can get by with, occasionally with a small "buffer" supplement. I'm crazy.

Cheers.

[johhny-turbo]

If you've acquired some more familiarity with the pricing side it's a good thing to look at some weaker startin positions.
Your best bet would be KH, Makedonia; or Epeiros.

It took me for freaking ever to get out of debt as Epeiros.

Sweboz also start off beginning a plummet into massive debt.

Also when compared to vanilla, the mines in EB are much much more profitiable.

[Bootsiuv]

and much much more expensive.

[Primus Inter Duces]

Amassing money does nothing for human players in EB except corrupt your family members. Put your money to some use, like formenting strife between other factions or buying map information. Better yet, improve your infrastructure. Bribes are ludicrously high - why pay off an army when you could raise 5 armies with the same amount of money?

The only use I see for large cash reserves is wholesale mercenary levies. Put your money into military forces. If they prevail, good things happen. If they are destroyed, the reduction in expenditure means you'll make more money.