Turkey Recalls Ambassador Over Genocide Resolution

[Tribesman]

Bad timing eh , a day after cross border shelling and a week before a vote on invasion .

[IrishArmenian]

Yes, really. And they think we work with the PKK! I support the idea of a Kurdish nation in Northern Iraq, but I will not tolerate terrorism or the killing of innocents. I really hope that with this we can join Georgia in being supported by the US rather than Russia. Georgia really came out of the USSR firing on all cylinders, which I truly do admire-- although they didn't have to deal with a devastating earthquake and some stupid conflict caused by nationalism and a lack of truly caring leaders.
Why the cynicism? We're human but we're not evil.

I apologize, I seem to display the Armenian stereotype of being a political one-trick horse. We're not actually like that, but I don't really think that the crowd here at the .Org is the closeminded generalisation favoring group.

[KukriKhan]

Bad timing eh , a day after cross border shelling and a week before a vote on invasion .

Yes, indeed. If Turkey, further emboldened by anger at the US resolution, launches anti-PKK attacks into northern Iraq, what leg has the US to stand on if Iran does the same, to respond to their PKK cross-border attacks? Repel Iran, but not Turkey? Or repel both Iran and a NATO ally? Or stand there crying "stop"?

And, as a side note, if we're gonna offocially deplore genocides (a term not coined until 1943), how soon will we see the resolution deploring the genocide of native americans?

[Husar]

Irish Armenian, I like to hear your opinion and to me (ok, I don't really know a lot about the topic ) you don't sound very biased. Maybe biased towards peace and understanding.

That said, I don't know what's so bad about acknowledging the bad things someone else has done, is it just because he happened to be born inside the same national borders?

I don't know why the US even thinks about how to look upon this but then big organizations always want to say something about events that hardly have anything to do with them.
Guess it's to show support for the armenian community as some said.

[Tribesman]

Now heres a thought that perhaps one of the Turkish members could ponder .
If people in Turkey campaigned against 301 which is used to cover prosecution for calling the events genocide , would they be breaching that law by their actions?

[Samurai Waki]

I just don't believe the USA has any right to call the Turkish-Armenian Situation a Genocide, if we can't even fess up to our own.

[HoreTore]

I don't support the idea that governments are to decide history.

That should be left to the historians. And laws constricting their research(both ways, of course) are idiotic and pointless, and serves only to poke at each other. The turks pokes at armenians by jailing people calling it a genocide, now other countries wants to poke the turks for not calling it genocide. A pointless role for a state to play.

[PanzerJaeger]

I just don't believe the USA has any right to call the Turkish-Armenian Situation a Genocide, if we can't even fess up to our own.

The Native American condition is very well documented and taught in public schools. I believe the government has "fessed up" to it in many ways, including financial aid and other benefits given to them.

[Samurai Waki]

The Native American condition is very well documented and taught in public schools. I believe the government has "fessed up" to it in many ways, including financial aid and other benefits given to them.

Have you ever been to a reservation? These places are the dirtiest, poorest, and most crime ridden places in the USA. The Crow Indian Reservation outside of Billings qualifies as the poorest place in the USA, and just by looking at it you'll see exactly why. Yeah, we were taught that we weren't be nice the Natives in School, but they don't ever tell you to what extent, you have to see it for your own eyes and you can. The very idea that the Natives Must stay in these dirt poor hovels, without guarantee of a job, or electricity, or clean water just so that they can get a Federal Aid Check every 2 months is just barely enough for them to stay, because most of them are afraid that they'll lose what little shreds of the Cultural Pride they have left if they leave... not exactly what I would call "Financial aid and benefits".

[Komutan]

Now heres a thought that perhaps one of the Turkish members could ponder .
If people in Turkey campaigned against 301 which is used to cover prosecution for calling the events genocide , would they be breaching that law by their actions?

It depends on the judge. 301 has such a broad range, that in theory even saying something like "Turkish soccer team sucks" may get you in trouble But of course they don't exaggerate it that much. There are many people protesting 301.

I don't think the real question here is whether there was a genocide or not. The question is whether a political body has the right to make a judgement for something that has happened in history. Of course a genocide that happened 5 years ago should be discussed as you can do something about it, like bringing the ones that committed the crime to trial etc. But this has happened almost 100 years ago. None of the people responsible for it are alive. What purpose do such bills have(other than pleasing Armenian voters)? They only result in fueling the hatred between Turks and Armenians. Every time such a vote is discussed, the voice of Turkish extreme nationalists gets stronger. If this issue was not discussed by foreign countries so much, I am sure Turks would eventually accept what has happened.

Actually I hope the bill will be passed this time, so we will not hear anymore about it. But I doubt it will pass. Until now USA played both to Armenians and Turks; discussing it for Armenians sake, and then not passing it for Turks sake. It will probably continue that way.

[Stig]

The question here is how far are the Turks willing to go. If they cut off U.S. air supplies they're risking a whole lot -- their position in the NATO and their supply of fresh craft for their air fleet. I don't think they'll try stuff like that; in a bluffing game it's big ol' Uncle Sam that's got the cards.

That's not really important. What matters more is the EU, if they want to be in it they will have to say the Genocide happened ... or don't deny it the way they do ... sure this has nothing to do with America, but most Europeans aren't as stupid as they look, they also hear with Turkey says about this now. And they might not like it.

[Komutan]

That's not really important. What matters more is the EU, if they want to be in it they will have to say the Genocide happened ... .

No. Officially there is no such precondition for Turkey's admittance to EU, even though the European Parliament insisted that Turkey should do it.

[Fragony]

That's not really important. What matters more is the EU, if they want to be in it they will have to say the Genocide happened ... or don't deny it the way they do ... sure this has nothing to do with America, but most Europeans aren't as stupid as they look, they also hear with Turkey says about this now. And they might not like it.

Didn't stop Aybarak, a known deniar, from being in our government.

[AntiochusIII]

What purpose do such bills have(other than pleasing Armenian voters)?

Apart from propaganda value, not really.

I agree that a place like Congress is the most appropriate to discuss historical issues, unless there's a diplomatic agenda at work.

If this issue was not discussed by foreign countries so much, I am sure Turks would eventually accept what has happened.

Oh, but that is a problem, you see, because meanwhile the Turkish government and whatever extreme nationalist scumbags within it will proceed to brainwash your nation from the roots: by whitewashing the history textbooks. The consequence of that, if successful, would be for the genocide to be forgotten forever, unacknowledged.

The activists and I suppose some historians cannot accept that, so they continue to raise the issue, even if the calm from controversy might just as well be the thing the Turkish people needs from another perspective. As long as the controversy continues no one will forget.

[IrishArmenian]

Irish Armenian, I like to hear your opinion and to me (ok, I don't really know a lot about the topic ) you don't sound very biased. Maybe biased towards peace and understanding.

Alright, you asked for it.
It is stupid that such an issue is debated by the American congress. They may be the ones who decide what to do about it, but they are politicians, not historians!
Of course its Genocide! Such an affront to human rights is generally called a genocide, yes? The American Indians, the Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies and others in World War II and many others serve as examples. Real 'repopulation attempts' include provisions, whereas Armenians were marched into the desert with absolutely nothing, shot if they stopped! Real 'repopulation attempts' do not involve gang-rape and burning at the stake. The once prosperous and esteemed Armenian population--known to some historians as 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire' in that they were an ethnic and religious minority that held mostly financial and administrative positions--suddenly dissapeared should've raised a few eyebrows, and it did amongst many people, including many Turks, who thought of us as a productive and respectful people. All of a sudden, we were no where to be found. We couldn't've possibly fallen of the edge of the earth, so what happened? Its quite obvious when one pursues the facts.
I'm also disgusted with my wayward brothers who seek violent revenge against the Turkish people for it, though. Sure, I think that we were wronged and well, got the shaft when Armenia emerged--Lake Van and Ararat are all I ask, but I digress--but pinning this on the Turkish people or the Turkish government is simply idiotic. As I stated earlier, the Genocide was the work of nationalists and the scum of the empire, recruited from the prisons. Sure, the Turkish government has downplayed the Genocide in a rather insulting fashion, trying to cover something up that was in no way their problem, inadvertently making it their problem, but they didn't commit the Genocide. The Turkish people didn't do it, come on, many hid us from the authorities, risking their lives and the lives of their families*. That is true brotherhood! It saddens me that many of our Turkish brothers have been indoctrinated by their government, but they might be saying the same about me, so that is a pointless endeavour.
Still, people are entitled to their own opinion. The law that was put up--did they succeed?--in France really hurts the cause. That idea of making it a law would reduce France to the level of the present Turkish government, which can arrest one on the grounds of 'Insulting Turkish Identity', which is a load of rot!
The whole situation makes me excruciatingly angry. If there was admittance, compensation, we could go on living our lives as brothers, but no! Some ten-watts on both sides think that compromise for the weak. What fools! They are obviously blind to the way the world works.
I admit, some Armenians, in retaliation for the Hamidian Massacres of the late 19th century, in which hundreds of thousands of Armenians were killed, massacred some Turkish towns. Terrible! Atrocious! I am truly ashamed that they did that in the name of Armenia and the Armenian people!
What wee need is to forgive, have a coming together, and the prosper as brothers, as we should! "No!" says the nationalist, "We should punish them for their insolence!" The politicians cater to what they percieve as the masses, but if they looked to the real masses, they'd see people tired of feuding and wanting to set their differences aside. No politicans want that, though, then people actually unite, which politicans fear the most.
This is merely an issue of people thinking that through adament denial, they can rewrite history, which is absolute bollocks.
*"There is no evil without the smallest measure of good"
--Armenian proverb

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One US political pundit has opined that the recent foray by Congress into a condemnation of the Armenian genocide (our 2nd or 3rd thereof) was done to:

1. Piss off Turkey so that

2. Turkey would invade and hammer the Kurdish militant/terrorists and thereby

3. Screw up Iraq and the fledgling successes of the last few months therein allowing the

4. Democrat party to keep hammering Bush and undercut ANY chance of him claiming success in Iraq because the key thing to do is harm G. W. Bush.

Thoughts? Plausible scenario?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Seems sadly plausible to me.

Heck, seems like the most probably reason for this vote. They get to be morally righteous and kick Bush in the pants.

CR

[Lemur]

Plausible scenario?

Anything's possible, but this does sound a bit tinfoil-hat-esque. Remember the modern version of Occam's Razor -- never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by incompetence.

[Devastatin Dave]

Anything's possible, but this does sound a bit tinfoil-hat-esque. Remember the modern version of Occam's Razor -- never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by incompetence.

Tinfoil hatesque? Get real, of course this is what they are doing. But who cars if it gets more of our troops killed as long as it keeps your favorite party in power right Lemur. I wish you guys and your political leaders on the left didn't "support the troops" so much.

[Ice]

One US political pundit has opined that the recent foray by Congress into a condemnation of the Armenian genocide (our 2nd or 3rd thereof) was done to:

1. Piss off Turkey so that

2. Turkey would invade and hammer the Kurdish militant/terrorists and thereby

3. Screw up Iraq and the fledgling successes of the last few months therein allowing the

4. Democrat party to keep hammering Bush and undercut ANY chance of him claiming success in Iraq because the key thing to do is harm G. W. Bush.

Thoughts? Plausible scenario?

I'm with Lemur. Sure, it's possible. Likely? Nah.

[KukriKhan]

Maybe Turkey will just return the favor, and vote a parliamentary resolution deploring America's genocide, instead of authorizing self-defense cross-border incursions.

Then the deplore-o-meter will be back in the center.

And the coalition forces can enforce Iraq's borders, something we're obviously not very good at, home or abroad.

[Xiahou]

One US political pundit has opined that the recent foray by Congress into a condemnation of the Armenian genocide (our 2nd or 3rd thereof) was done to:

1. Piss off Turkey so that

2. Turkey would invade and hammer the Kurdish militant/terrorists and thereby

3. Screw up Iraq and the fledgling successes of the last few months therein allowing the

4. Democrat party to keep hammering Bush and undercut ANY chance of him claiming success in Iraq because the key thing to do is harm G. W. Bush.

Thoughts? Plausible scenario?

You can wonder about their intent, I guess, but the practical effect of their actions isn't too much in doubt- putting a chill on relations with Turkey and reducing our influence with a vital ally in the region.

Democrat lawmakers can't be so stupid as to not know this, so why are they doing it?

[Ironside]

One US political pundit has opined that the recent foray by Congress into a condemnation of the Armenian genocide (our 2nd or 3rd thereof) was done to:

1. Piss off Turkey so that

2. Turkey would invade and hammer the Kurdish militant/terrorists and thereby

3. Screw up Iraq and the fledgling successes of the last few months therein allowing the

4. Democrat party to keep hammering Bush and undercut ANY chance of him claiming success in Iraq because the key thing to do is harm G. W. Bush.

Thoughts? Plausible scenario?

Why is a key thing to hammer G.W. "president with lowest ratings ever" Bush? He's pretty much politically dead nowadays from what I've understood. Anyone competent enough to pull this off would be looking at least onto the next election.

You can probably run something in the lines of pushing a withdrawal before the next election or getting the situation so bad that it's blatantly obvious that retreat is the only practical option, if you want to find a conspiracy theory though.

Tinfoil hatesque? Get real, of course this is what they are doing. But who cars if it gets more of our troops killed as long as it keeps your favorite party in power right Lemur. I wish you guys and your political leaders on the left didn't "support the troops" so much.

You mean like the support the troops have gotten from Bush & company? The Iraqi war and aftermatch have been a political game since day one, with Americans and Iraqis paying for it with thier blood. And US taxpayers paying the money.

[Devastatin Dave]

You mean like the support the troops have gotten from Bush & company? The Iraqi war and aftermatch have been a political game since day one, with Americans and Iraqis paying for it with thier blood. And US taxpayers paying the money.

Again, the democrats are as much to blame for this. They voted FOR this. They have an obligation to truelly support the troops, not attept to get their supply lines cut. I can't believe that for a bunch of Total War armchair generals posting here can't see the obvious strategic move that the dems are making. If I'm paying the bill I want to win, not leave my guys with their ####s in the wind with no suplly line.