1.0 Succession Game Discussion Thread

[Bootsiuv]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

Armies are controlled by the Shophet on the campaign map, but battles are played out by the leading general, just like our KH game.

I was thinking of giving governors in type 3 and type 4 control over the forces in their territory i.e. they pm the shophet and tell him what they want him to do and he must listen. If they want to attack an invading army, but he doesn't agree with it, tough. He would still have to attack the army, and the governor of that territory would play out that battle, regardless if the army is led by a captain or not.

Is this too confusing. I do believe they've done something similiar in King of the Romans, so I know it's possible. It all depends on how active people plan on being, because, eventually, there may be a lot of save swapping going on in one turn.

I'm down, but I don't know how into others would like to be...

[pezhetairoi]

Okay, I don't necessarily have to be Hamilcar. Question, though: Can I import units from other theatres if my own troop roster is lacking? The issue between me and Spoofa being a case in point. He can take Hamilcar, but if I get assigned something like the Lipari islands, can I order up troops from Iberia and Sicilia as well to go amphibious? Do we submit personnel requests to the Shophet? Because wherever I may be, if I don't land one of the plum governorships, I don't want to have to conquer a province for myself with Misteret Izrahim Ponnim. o.O

It would go pretty slow, since the save swapping is tough... It'd be interesting though if we eventually followed a Roman-style senatorial province allocation. Newly conquered provinces are reorganised, boundaries between provinces (groups of territories) are shifted, which would allow the same governors to continue having jurisdiction over theatres of action. I mean, it's pretty useless to have a governor of Bocchoris since he's practically going to sit there and do nothing the whole campaign, right? Or am I misunderstanding this?

I like the idea of the provincial governor calling out moves, so you're saying the Shophet is like the gamemaster, no? So am I to understand that the Shophet will have direct control over all lvl 1 and 2 governments, while we governors only control the 3s and 4s? Do we also control building in our own provinces, how is the budget allocated? And also, what if we need to convert to higher governments in order to access more advanced building options?

The Shophet is going to have to be one busy and active person. Or why not each governor takes turns to be both his own governor AND Shophet? Something like the UN Secretary General. That way everyone gets a turn, and we have more chances of not slowing down the game because someone is inactive. We could have a rule, for example, someone who is Shophet and inactive for more than a week will lose his post and have it handed over to the next person in the order of rotation? (I'm suggesting this because for the next few weeks at least, I will only be free on weekends. :D)

[Poulp']

I mean, it's pretty useless to have a governor of Bocchoris since he's practically going to sit there and do nothing the whole campaign, right? Or am I misunderstanding this?

A money maker on a money making island, that's not exactly what I'd call useless.
It is a appropriate place to harbor a fleet in Western Med and from there, you can ferry slingers to the frontline.
He may also be in charge of ferry troops from Africa to Iberia, Sardinia, etc...

I wonder how we should work; will be player in charge play all the battles during his term ? or will he be sending to save file to the general/player on the field ?

I prefer the 1st option, acting accordingly to the assembly's decisions.

I look forward to the debates over where we should send troops/ allocate budget.
Let us remember that Hannibal did not took Rome because he never received relief troops and he was recalled to Carthage, priorities had changed.
Politics, politics...

[Bootsiuv]

All good points....we'll have to put our heads together and figure out the best way to approach this. I'm open to all ideas, and in the end, I'll likely look that all of our options and choose what I think is best.

I don't have a huge amount of time right now, but I'll be back to elaborate on my ideas in a little while.

[Poulp']

alright, brainstorming time

I'm in favour of having a player handle all battles and troops movements, management, etc during his term (with
the term itself should be short, one or two years; still long enough to have short term objectives fulfilled, while the assembly works on the longer term.

players should turn up quick enough this way.
swapping one save game to as many players as there are battles will quickly become a hassle.

that said, it's my first succession game, people who already played some might share their experience (things not to do, a methodology to use...)

Also, can a moderator be named for this thread ? this thread to-be that is.
Or maybe we already have a mod within the players

[Spoofa]

HAHA! the war mongering Spoofa has won his role as the warmongerer.

thank's for being the better man Pezhetairoi

dont fret though, maybe you can be Himilco (spelling), my arch rival?

[Sassem]

I'm al so in for a Safot Softim biQarthadast game

As for organising before we open a thread it would nice to have everything (rules/players-characters/battle plans/army compositions/mods/ game settings/chapter index/translations.. etc) in one single first post

I think it's very useful to have everything you want to know in 1 post and it should be updated regular people dying or new people have to be assigned to new kids and so we easily can keep track who's turn it is (the player has the button)

And for the save game thing I like to use the same system as the one we used for the KH Succession game

These are my looking forward to start a succession game

[Bootsiuv]

alright, brainstorming time

I'm in favour of having a player handle all battles and troops movements, management, etc during his term (with
the term itself should be short, one or two years; still long enough to have short term objectives fulfilled, while the assembly works on the longer term.

players should turn up quick enough this way.
swapping one save game to as many players as there are battles will quickly become a hassle.

Yes. I understand your concerns. Hmmmm....

That being said, I think that having one player play all of the battles during a term might take away from the immersion somewhat....people would no longer really be able to become distinguished generals, because everyone would play every character. It would also sort of eliminate the need to really even have characters, albeit it looks like characters who are governors will play a bigger role than our KH game.

I have to say that I frown on the idea really. I understand that save-swapping would take some time, but that's really why people should expect to devote 1-2 hours to this game every 48 hours, even if it's only on these boards controlling their respective provinces.

I have heard that some don't have access to RTW for a while, or only on weekends....this is fine. We can work around issues like this (like if you cant play a battle), but if you never log in to maintain your province then the Shophet will not know what to do, and the game will lose momentum and fall apart.

So, I hope all players will be able to devote at least 45mins-1hour (at the least) to this game EVERY TWO DAYS!!!!

I must still dwell on the other possibilities. I think it's time for me to grab a cup of coffee and a pen and pad of paper. I'm going to work out our rules, constitution, what's expected of players, etc.

This does not mean that our rules are set in stone and I'm open to suggestions.

Also, can a moderator be named for this thread ? this thread to-be that is.
Or maybe we already have a mod within the players

Unfortunately, I don't have mod abilities.

That being said, I was thinking of asking one of the team members who are mods to assist us, although I don't know how receptive they would be considering they probably have more important things to do (like working on the mod, for example), so I'm not going to really bug them about it. I might ask MAA or TA for there assistance, although I don't see us needing it too much. Maybe once in a while (like when someone new posts a question in the 'incharacter' thread, and it sticks out like a sore thumb).

They're nice guys though, so someone will probably help if we ask.

I'm al so in for a Safot Softim biQarthadast game

As for organising before we open a thread it would nice to have everything (rules/players-characters/battle plans/army compositions/mods/ game settings/chapter index/translations.. etc) in one single first post

I think it's very useful to have everything you want to know in 1 post and it should be updated regular people dying or new people have to be assigned to new kids and so we easily can keep track who's turn it is (the player has the button)

And for the save game thing I like to use the same system as the one we used for the KH Succession game

These are my looking forward to start a succession game

As always, good ideas. I agree completely. I'll make sure to make it happen, and the save thing will be one of the rules that people will have to get used to. An EB succession game nuisance, but hardly that big of a deal. People just have to save at the end of every single turn.

[Xehh II]

Well, if we're all choosing generals now, I'd like to be a general that does the most of nothing and the very, very, very last in line to be Shophet. I admit, I'm pretty crap at managing large empires, that's why I was concerned about Carthage, so would it be ok if I did as little managing as possible?

[Ignoramus]

If you need any help setting up the rules, ask econ21 or TinCow. They have been responsible for setting up "The Will of the Senate" and "King of the Romans". They would have boundless helpful information.

Oh, and I'd be interested in giving it a go.

[Bootsiuv]

Thanks for the suggestion Ignoramus!!

I think I'll do that.

Oh, and welcome to the game.

EDIT: I've actually asked the powers that be if they're is any way that I can be given mod powers in my game threads, or barring that, this subforum.

I have a feeling they'll say no, and I don't blame them. Someone with mod powers could really screw this place up if they wanted to (although I would never do such a thing, as I don't get a rush from other's misery).

It really is a big deal for a non-team member.

The only reason I asked is because I invariably know a new player will ask a question in our incharacter thread (even though there will be a huge disclaimer on the first page, ya know how people are), then someone will answer it, someone else will comment, and the entire roleplaying atmosphere will be gone, and I won't be able to do anything about it.

That's what happened in the last council thread, if you'll notice.

Well, if I can't get mod powers, maybe foot, teleklos, or MAA will help us make sure that doesn't happen. I would just rather not bug them about it....they do have a mod to make and probably hardly feel like worrying about a succession game they're not even playing.

We'll have to wait and see. Maybe will get lucky and one of them will join the game, then it won't be an issue.

Well, I'm off to bed

See ya'll tomorrow.

Bootsiuv

[Ag3nt_Magnum]

The only reason I asked is because I invariably know a new player will ask a question in our incharacter thread (even though there will be a huge disclaimer on the first page, ya know how people are), then someone will answer it, someone else will comment, and the entire roleplaying atmosphere will be gone, and I won't be able to do anything about it.

Couldn't there be like 2 threads, of wich one would be for questions and stuff, and the other for roleplaying ?

[Sassem]

That was i think the setup al so for KH game but almost everybody me too was posting in the roleplaying thread

This is why it would be nice that we have somebody with mod rights in the game so he can delete/move post there shouldn't be there

[Basileus Seleukeia]

I'm sorry, but I won't be able to participate. EB 1.0 is something that barely runs on my laptop, so it would be a royal pain for me to swap saves and start the game several times a day. But I'm pretty sure you can manage this without me too

[Spoofa]

Can everyone here play on huge? even with all the graphics turned down or somthing? I really really would like to play on huge, because large makes me feel like all im doing is getting everybody in my small town and we all played dress up and are fighting it out in my backyard.

but maybe im just being selfish

[Poulp']

playing on huge means sorting me out

[Spoofa]

gah, I guess no huge then

[pezhetairoi]

Here's my conception of what we -could- do for this Succession Game. Probably quite off the mark, but maybe some ideas you all could use?

CONCEPTUALISATION

1) The empire will be divided into provinces--groups of territories. For example, clearly Gader, Bocchoris and Mastia together form one province, as does Alalia and Karali, and Lilibeo. Kart-Hadast, Atiqa and Ippone form another, Adrumeto and Lepki the last. Each of these provinces will be under a governor.

2) The governor is the civil and military ruler in his province. Construction and recruitment are undertaken by him.

3) The governor provides infrastructure and recruitment options to those roleplaying commanders in the field, of which more later.

4) Overlarge provinces may be divided into several provinces if need be, to allow new governors to join in.

5) Province reorganisation (if need be), budget allocation and major foreign policy (declarations of war, or ceasefires) will be discussed by the Council every week or two.

THE SHOPHET

6) The office of Shophet, head of the Council, will be rotated among governors according to a prearranged order, for a period of two weeks. At the end of the period, the Shophetship will pass to the next person. The Shophetship will also automatically pass to the next person if the Shophet does not post for more than seven days to prevent too much disruption in the flow of the game.

6.1) Shophets administer their own provinces directly in addition to the duties of Shophetship.

7) Shophets are the administrative heads of the campaign. They are custodians of the official savegame and the ones who make all the moves for the governors. Governors will inform the Shophet of their desired moves via PM.

8) The Shophet is responsible for posting screenshots of the frontlines on the Council thread regularly to permit the commanders, who need the information, to make their decisions promptly.

9) The Shophet spends the previous Shophet's accumulated budget, then accumulates a new budget for the next Shophet. At the beginning of his term he announces the budget, and allocations are made in Council. Governors then decide on their expenditure items and the Shophet will make the necessary orders. All 'leftover' sums of a few tens or hundreds of mnai will enter the Reserve, as well as a fixed percentage of the budget itself, to be used in dire need to call out mercenaries or spend on unexpected costs.

10) The Shophet controls all agents. Commanders may request for spies to be trained to cover certain unexplored areas, but apart from those immediately needed by commanders, all other spies, diplomats and assassins are under control of the Council through the Shophet.

THE SUPPLY SYSTEM

11) The governor does not fight. He roleplays a family member, who may tour the province depending on the style of the governor.

12) The governor is a supplier of troops to the frontline. He must do his best to supply all commanders in the field with their requests vis-a-vis troops. This is crucial as only good logistics will permit an offensive to be sustained.

13) The Shophet should set aside a sum for recruitment purposes only, and this will be drawn upon by the governors to make good their troop orders. The Reserve may also be drawn into in times of urgency. That's what it's there for.

14) Naval transportation will be under the direct control of the Shophet. He will be responsible for getting troops in the shortest possible time to another theatre. He is also the naval secretary, and is the voice who argues for naval allocations in the budget.

15) Commanders' call on troops are limited by the Council's decisions on expenditure. Disbandments or reorganisation of armies by the Council to produce a more equitable distribution of troops along the front may occur if army upkeep is too high, and recruitment may be stopped for a period of time until the financial problem eases.

THE FIELD COMMANDER

16) The commander is distinct from the governor in that he does not build, or train, or handle money in any form. He only kills, destroys and uses up troops in campaign. He roleplays a family member, and depending on the number of family members and real life players, he may have more than one family member under his command as his lieutenant.

17) The commander's main force may be split and combined as he wishes under any captain or family member he chooses, and he will retain command of the whole force.

18) The commander is independent, though based on his own discretion he may be swayed by governors requesting him to take a certain settlement that will afford a particular type of troops, for example. He must obey the Council's decisions with regards to foreign policy, i.e. who not to attack...yet.

19) The commander, like governors, PMs his moves to the Shophet based on his analysis of the turn-by-turn screenshots of the frontline.

20) The commander can shift his armies from theatre to theatre, but each commander is responsible for the defence of a particular theatre, and should it come under attack while he is away he is bound to return to defend the provinces in his theatre. Governors may not undertake any military action whatsoever, to prevent confusion.

21) Commanders can, on mutual agreement, collaborate in one theatre to carry out multi-army offensives. They may also share their troops or transfer control of units between one another upon mutual agreement.

BATTLES

22) It is the Shophet's job to pass the saved file to a commander if he opts to attack an enemy army and fight a battle, so that he may fight it himself, or if the AI attacks a force under his control.

23) Upon completion of the battle, unless subsequent battles involving the same commander's forces may be fought within the same turn, the commander must hand back the updated save file to the Shophet.

23.1) If more battles may be fought within the same turn, the Commander will himself move his armies and fight until he runs out of movement points before returning the save file for the Shophet to end the turn.

REGULATIONS FOR PLAYERS

24) All governors and commanders must indicate their moves at most every seven days, in line with the maximum time a Shophet may be AFK. It would be best if moves were made before the deadline. At the end of the three days, all who have not moved will be assumed to have no moves to make that turn, and the turn will be ended without waiting for them. Exceptions are when the Shophet is waiting for a commander to return to his computer to fight a battle.

24.1) If commanders can foresee that they will be away for a period of time, or that they only have time to update themselves on the situation but not to download the savefile, load EB, fight their battle and upload the updated savefile, they can hand the battle to a willing governor or commander to fight it for them, but that commander or governor can only fight it and not make any moves with the original commander's army otherwise.

25) Commanders or governors AFK for more than three weeks without any posts or moves will have their province or imperium passed on to some other player.



That's about it. What do you all think?

I don't know if my separation of governors and commanders has been done before in other succession games, but it does seem to me quite plausible. Those fighting will focus on fighting, and those responsible for administration will focus on administration. Thus those unable to commit so much time will be assigned less crucial provinces or will just have less active armies, and those able to commit more will have more developed provinces to manage.

I chose two weeks as the term for the Shophet because I'm pretty sure logging on every two days is going to be a bit hard for some people (me included, the best I can manage is every three days when the omens are favourable). So assuming a normal King in a succession game plays a few turns in his term, it's about right for 14 days.

For those who feel that it's not fair some people do all the fighting and some people all the governing, a swap system can be implemented. A roster could be created for swaps between civil and military roles for players so each will have equal exposure to both roles.

[Ag3nt_Magnum]

Seems reasonable.
On a personal note, I would really really like to be assigned as commander of a force of greek mercenary's, or even some italians or iberians. I'd go along with a carthaginian army too. As well as with governing a large or medium city. Just not some backwater village in the middle of the Sahara pls.
I also have time to commit to this endeavor basically every day, maybe except wednesdays, although I think I can somehow squeeze it into my schedule if need be.

[Bootsiuv]

Fantastic Ideas, Pehzhetarioi.

Well, the powers that be say it would be impossible to make me a mod for just a succession game (which I totally understand).

So, we're just going to have to overlook OOC posts in our IN CHARACTER thread....just answer in a roleplaying fashion, that way at least there won't be a 21st century conversation taking place in a 3rd century BC Council Hall.

As far as our rules for the game go, I may bring it back a little bit as far as complexity goes....I've spoken to the founder of the 'Will of the Senate' and 'King of the Romans' games, and he has given me several good pointers.

I don't think he'll mind if I share his post here with you all, so you'll more understand why I might make the choices I'll make...

Hi Bootsiuv,

On the succession game, I think the key things are ownership and persistence. I think a game works best when one person "owns" the game and has final authority as gamesmaster, then uses that ability to keep the show going. What kills games is that the person who is supposed to do something - typically the King in simple games - just disappears. The others politely sit around for weeks waiting for them and the game slowly dies. In one of the earliest MTW PBMs, Kukrikhan required Kings to post every two days - even if just a holding message "I am busy with RL" - or forfeit their turn. Something equivalent to that is essential and what in practice it means is that the gamesmaster - you, in this case - has to keep checking on the game on a daily basis, navigating it through whatever difficult waters it encounters. Assuming authority as gamesmaster is something you need to do at the start - draft the rules and make sure you are happy with them. It is good to consult widely, but ultimately it is best to have a single coherent vision for the game rather than give power to an informal committee.

Beyond the gamesmaster, the other thing you need is a cadre of committed players. If you are doing a Will of the Senate type game, ultimately you want between a dozen and twenty. A simple succession game, you want half a dozen or more at the start (more will come later, but there is no hurry). There will inevitably be a lot of turnover. Some will drop out, energetic and thrusting newcomers will arrive. If you are assigning players avatars, then you have to try to make sure they go to the active ones. This may mean reassigning avatars away from no-shows and making sure the most active players are rewarded with their own avatars. It can be hard to know who should get the first avatars, although looking at people's participation in other PBMs or TW activities might give you a clue as to who is going to last and who is just passing through. Once the game gets going, you will probably have more players than avatars at the start so you could assign them to the players who are the more active in role-playing. A first come, first served policy is ok with a traditional succession game (provided you quickly skip over any no-shows) but I would not necessarily use it when assigning avatars.

Some other thoughts:
- delegating battles to the player commanding the generals works really well - logistically easy and keeps the participants much more involved.
- delegating moves, finances etc to governors or army commandment is very problematic and to be honest I would try to avoid it. Too slow in RL and TW is just not set up to easily provide the province or army level information you need.
- voting on policies and electing leaders works really well, as does having a Parliament style thread for in character debates.
- battle reports are a must IMO and having a story thread might be rewarding
- we introduced a rule whereby players can change the rules when they have a 2/3 majority; that is quite a nice safety valve for players who disagree OOC with the gamesmaster and also allows for in character constitutional reform.
- 10 turn stints as the "King" are ample; longer than that and things start to drag for everyone.

On moderating powers, I don't think they are needed to run a PBM. The only ones I use is to lock full threads and sticky some key ones, but neither is essential. The key stuff you need to do - start new threads, start polls, upload saves and screenshots etc - you can already do as a member. If your game becomes a forum institution - lasting months - then maybe the EB team would be willing to give you moderator powers. (I think the Org pretty much lets them manage their own sub-forums).

Let me know if you have any more questions and all the best with your PBM.

cheers

econ

After reading this, I'm quite confident that governors choosing building queues is out. It's simply too complicated, and will likely slow the game down too much, resulting in a slow death.

I hope you guys wouldn't be too dissapointed with this setup, but I just want to make this as fun and go as smoothly as possible. I would really like to be 'standing upon the hills of Rome' with you guys, but that is only going to happen if the game makes it that far.

Thoughts? Concerns?

I plan on writing up a constitiution today (I've actually already started...heh, I was bored last nite).

So, stay tuned, and here's to many fun hours ahead!!

[SpawnOfEbil]

I'll be willing to give this a go, since I've had fun times with Carthage campaigns (such as taking Rome with a force composed of mainly mercenaries I recruited along the way).

I also vote for RomeTW.exe and Large units, since Huge is too big imo (cramps development of towns). Also, I don't think my PC will be able to run Huge

[Bootsiuv]

Fantastic....welcome aboard, and make sure to try and check the thread once a day, and barring that, at least every two days, to see what's going on.

That goes for everyone....I think we may have enough players to hold votes on leaders and actually have a senate type game.

Just remember what I said before....plan on devoting 1-2 hours to the game (that may be high, but give yourself a buffer zone in-case you have to fight a battle) every two days.

We're likely still a few days off, as we still will have the 48 hour discussion thread.

EDIT: After reading that, it should be 48 hour discussion in the Council thread....heh, this IS the discussion thread. Sorry for any confusion.

[Sassem]

If you don't mind i will start making screenshots of the family members
I will make a example and will send it to you if you agree i will go further with it

BTW nice post @pezhetairoi and @Bootsiuv but what means

OOC
AFK
PBM
RL
TW

That is what i mean with translations

after i read both your posts i think it's better for me to stay in the shade for a while before i will stand in the sun i will be in but want to give this Succession game a good start by letting you guys give the good example for a couple of weeks but you can use me for updating family members etc i'm almost every day online to check this thread

[Spoofa]

splendid suggestions guys, I like the commander idea definitely.

[Bootsiuv]

OOC= Out of Character
AFK= I'm not sure, but I can tell by the context of the post that it has something to do with people being inactive.
PBM= Also known as PBeM, or Play by E-Mail. It's a succession game, just another name for it....I would prefer the save posted on a place where everyone has access to it, like filefront, although this method can be used in a pinch if it must.
RL = Real Life
TW = Heh, Total War.

I hope by sit in the shade you don't mean not participate friend....I was going to assign you one of the first avatars (due to your help in the KH thread).

[SpawnOfEbil]

AFK=Away from Keyboard.

[Sassem]

Do you like this for every player in one of the top post

I see that i have to crop out the age thing we can replace this by the year of birth

and yes I'm in for sure but there is a lot to learn for me those rules and behavior but i guess that is for everyone (gotta a little scared after reading both your posts)


I'm playing a SSQ game right now It's totally different then 0.81 the Eleuthorie(sp) is a lot tougher in Africa

Ow and what does IIRC mean???

[Xehh II]

IIRC means If I Remember Correctly. I think, it fits and nobody has said otherwise yet.

[KuKulzA]

Qarthadast sounds good to me...

can't wait to lead Africans and Numidians against all sorts of enemies...

[Bootsiuv]

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly, but if I remember correctly means the same thing, so I guess both work.

@Sassem....

Don't be afraid, friend! This is meant to be an enjoyable, relaxing, and (at times) exciting experience. I will be here to guide you guys along and address any concerns you might have.

As for the screenshots, they're friggin AMAZING!! They will do much to add to the roleplaying atmosphere. I just have to assign avatars i.e. in-game characters. I've determined to do this based on activity in the KH game first, and then order in which people signed up. If people prove to be inactive, they'll run the risk of losing their avatar.

One idea would be to encourage players to put their particular avatar in their sigs, perhaps in a smaller size, as it might help remind people of their duty to the Shophet!

I won't have actual 1.0 until tomorrow, when I can assign people avatars. If you would like to send me a simple list of alll characters and their respective positions, I'll choose them tonite.

I'm very happy to hear that the Eleutheroi are a pain in the arse....should make subduing North Africa and Iberia difficult to say the least!

Oh, and welcome KuKulzA. Glad to see you continue from our KH game.