The Amazing Epeirote Debt Machine, or: "Help?"

[Landwalker]

So, to celebrate the release of EB 1.0, and indeed to celebrate me just getting started into the EB world, I thought I would take a break from the Romaioi (as a Byzantinist, I feel obligated to use the Greek national term rather than the Latin Romani) and try my hand at the kingdom of Epeiros.

I quickly realized that I may very well not be up to the challenge. Despite claims in the faction selection screen of being "Challenging" (which I interpret to mean "Slightly more difficult than Rome"), I find myself facing over 10,000 minae in debt after a single turn. To aid in my quest to turn Pyrrhos' dubious distinction of having his name become an adjective into a positive thing, might any of the more experienced EBers have some words of wisdom on firing up the Epeirote War Machine? Alternatively, are there any "getting started" guides floating about for the Epeirotes, akin to those listed in the FAQ for Rome, Bactria, and the like?

Cheers.

[Bootsiuv]

Disband or conquer. These are your options.

I would strike hard in Hellas, and not worry too much about Taras. Taking on the Romani from the get go sucks essentially.

Or, disband the majority of your troops, build economic infrastructure, and hope you don't find a Makedonian army on Ambrakia's doorstep.

[Sakkura]

EB in itself is far more economically challenging than pure RTW. Taking a challenging nation only increases the challenge. The troops you start with are meant for use in attacks early on; if you don't use them to conquer something or disband them, their costs will be too high for your starting economy.

[Dram]

for any faction that starts out with an economically unsustainable army you can either:

1. disband all the uneccessary units and focus on developing your economy. some people recommend this but i really cant imagine how you can do this on VH difficulty unless youre playing as a faction that is completely isolated.

2. you can use your army to expand rapidly. gradually as you take more and more provinces your army will deplete until its being used to garrison the new towns and you dont really have a field army anymore. look around the map to insure that you take the weakest towns, preferably rebel ones so you dont start any wars. you really have to do this fast if youre dealing with other factions because they dont have debt problems and will continue to produce troops every turn. you just have to hold them until the unrest goes down eneough that you can start to take some troops out of garrison to defend your kingdom. once you get your profits going its pretty much smooth sailing.

oh yeah also, im not sure if Pella starts with a mine or not, but if it does, make it a priority- theres several large vein precious metal mines in the area that can produce a great deal of gold.

[Kampfkrebs]

build exactly one phalangitai deuteroi in taras, this single unit willl kill every roman who tires to step through the doors of taras, simply place it in front of the gate and watch the slaughter.

With this you can keep taras, and then you should conquer as much of hellas as possible; disband fleet + elephants. this will give you some room to breath, and exterminate everything on your way.

I just destroyed the maks (killed all their leaders), and I make ~7000mnai per round with everything of hellas under my control except the aiotoloi (sp? wtf the rebels with the big army there) and sparte.
The KH are broken too. All hail pyrrhos!

And build mines/ports/roads!

[paullus]

you've got one of the more expensive starting armies in the entire map. you can either use them to go rampaging around (as Pyrrhos did in 272 until his--unfortunate?--demise) or you can disband them and try to survive, slowly building up to expand later on. I'd recommend doing a bit of rampaging first, but also considering disbanding a few of your more expensive units.

[Bootsiuv]

I can't remember if Pella has one or not, but I'm fairly certain Illyria is rich in minerals to be mined, and Athenai has a silver mine IIRC.

[Bootsiuv]

Oh yeah, I forgot abou the Eles...

Lose 'em, unless you feel the absolute need to take towns in one turn.

I sometimes keep them to take Pella on turn 1, but then they're gone.

Fleets are rather useless, but sometimes I keep one around to evacuate any FM's in Italy who need to roll out with a quickness.

[Kampfkrebs]

Pella gives ~3500mnai per turn with full build up mines.

[Bootsiuv]

Well, there ya go....probably explains why Hellas is one of the richest areas on the map.

[Sarkiss]

dont disband eles, use them! they'll allow to take a settlement the same turn and while Phyrros is alive you should overrun all of Greece with their help. Phyrros + eles an explosive combo. i took all of Greece with Phyrros still in charge.
it is cheaper to maintain them than recruit a new. and they will get some experience in the meantime too. just dont (even if you can afford) retrain them until you got all of Greece.
disband fleet and withraw form Taras destroying everything and putting tax on VH so it can rebel. it will let Rome grow stronger in Italy while you expand in Greece and Anatolia and will assure an eventual challenging encounter with Rome.

[Bootsiuv]

Pyrrhos + eles = expensive combo....it really depends on if you feel like blitzing Hellas or taking a little more time to consolidate. If they sit around for one turn, they're an enormous waste of resources. Use them every turn you can if you plan on keeping them, because every turn they sit they're a 2000 mnai (IIRC) expense for absolutely no point.

My point is don't let them sit on garrison duty for the 3 or 4 turns many players take to consolidate after annexing a territory. Use them or lose them.

Fleets are similiar, but they're a 500 mnai expense, and I can't bring myself to desert FM's on islands, or, in this case, across a sea. It really depends on your personal play style, but you could probably abandon Taras, and then disband all fleets to save even more money. Alternatively, you could just disband the fleets and hope the Taras garrison will hold out. The choice is yours, and it depends on how much money you want to make, and how comfortable you are fighting two wars in two different theaters.

[Landwalker]

Some interesting ideas. A couple of questions:

1) FMs?

2) Would you say it is more advisable to launch straight into the Macedons and try to tear them down as quickly as possible, or to instead concentrate on the northern rebel settlements? The Macedons start out with a huge army, but it's in Attica and those environs rather than in northern Macedonia--thus, I see a possibility of quickly knocking over a couple of Macedonian cities in the north before the larger military components come in (if they come at all), but I'm also concerned that when they come, I'll have a war-weary army and no money to replenish or reinforce it. On the other hand, I'm concerned about allowing Macedonia to increase its strength early on, and I don't know if seizing northern Eleutheroi provinces will be sufficient to counteract it.

Cheers.

[paullus]

1) Family Members

2) That doesn't sound like the sort of worrying Pyrrhos would do. While he ended up turning south and attacking Sparta, its equally plausible to imagine him seizing hold of Makedonia and eagerly seeking battle in command of an over-extended, weary army against the returning forces of Antigonos. Point is: Pyrrhos didn't have a large army because it was financially responsible in light of what Epeiros could support, he had a large army because he intended to be king of all Hellas.

[skuzzy]

Compared to 0.81 Epeirote's debts are much more difficult to overcome. This is also my first campaign. I sacked Pella the first turn. Threw 2 of my 3 sets of ships into whatever ship I came across to remove myself from the naval scene and also spare costs of maintanence. Despite wanting to disband the elephants I just couldn't because they're terrorizing machines and I love them. After Pella you can either try to take Antiganos head on in Demetrias or you can use your remaining ship to land near Korinthos and block your nrothern cities with poorly garrisoned forts long enough for you to sack Corinth. By this time your army should start withering and your debts lessening but you will probably already be about 10-15k in the hole. If you want to risk it or if the AI hasn't sieged either of the forts you could break peace with KH and should be fairly simple to take Sparta. Keeping your army here will be pretty secure from Antiganos if you have built a fort on the land bridge to Corinth. Pretty much that is as far as I've gotten but I can say that Epeiros is seemingly much more difficult than before and I don't know if I will be able to overcome the debt due to not being able to construct a mine in Pella as by the end of the first turn you're already instantly in debt.

[Forgus]

Right now I'm playing Epeiros. I disbanded nothing but until I managed to crush Macedon I was in -65000 Mnai, and got atacked by KH with strong armies. My armies got a pounding I lost Euboia and Korinthos but KH never really recovered her losses (neither could I being in deficit, hut by this time my armies were so worn out that i made 6000 profit per turn. Basicly I broke even 3 years later. These years we struggled with KH like two dying men clutching each others throat. I recovered first, and few retrained taxeis deuteroi broke the stalemate.

Later the drama continued, previously Taras was attacked by Rome by half tacks I crushed though at times I thought I won't make it. This time it was different, Scipio showed up with 2 full stacks some 4 thousand men against my 1400. I gathered my veteran units, silver chevron phalangites and slingers with a family member (FM for noobs ) but the ships were sunk by roman and later Eleutheroi ships. Taras eventually fell I lost most of my army and Magna Graecia. But I'll be back.

I admit I fully partial to my baby (it is fun to see your own skins running around) but it's been my most challanging and fun campaign I had so far in any computer game.

[Bootsiuv]

Yes, large debts can be incurred, but they can also be overcome. I was 27000 in debt in my Sabyn campaign. It is .81, as I don't have 1.0 until tommorrow, so I can't comment on that yet, but I think they'll be my first campaign.

Anyways, after I took Axum, Meroe, and Ubar, I've finally gone into the black again....so just because your extremely in debt doesn't mean you can't come back.

Just make sure you play out every single battle, and use wise tactics, maintain formations, etc. to minimize losses, because you won't have reinforcements for some years.

BTW, speaking of maintaining formations....the left-alt key is critical when moving your forces. Your men will maintain their formation while moving. Be paitient, and have your men walk, don't run unless it's absolutely necessary. Tired men don't fight as well as fresh ones.

[Landwalker]

2) That doesn't sound like the sort of worrying Pyrrhos would do. While he ended up turning south and attacking Sparta, its equally plausible to imagine him seizing hold of Makedonia and eagerly seeking battle in command of an over-extended, weary army against the returning forces of Antigonos. Point is: Pyrrhos didn't have a large army because it was financially responsible in light of what Epeiros could support, he had a large army because he intended to be king of all Hellas.

An excellent point. I just laid waste to Pella right off the bat (as tempting as it is to sack the royal tombs for 12,500 minae, I can't bring myself to do it), and now it's time to march south. Antigonos, here I come!

P.S. Those two-hit point elephants are killing me... At least it's an upkeep burden off my back every time a stray sling bullet takes them out.

[CountArach]

My first ever Epirote campaign (Wayback in 0.7.4 with the Reinforcement CTD) saw me abandoning Italy in favour of returning home. You can quickly seize all the Makedonian homelands, as well as Athens. If you still have enough of an army left, you could then go down further south. The key to remember is that you are facing two powers with not much more than you in Greece, and as such every city you take is a major shift in the power balance.

Remember to leave Taras with a bare bones garrison and do not build anything there first turn. It will jsut be taken by the Romani very quickly. Instead, concentrate on your infrastructe in your homeland on your first turn.

[konny]

If your army composition is the same as in EB0.8: disband the elephants (you can build rams for nothing) and all but one ship. These toys are responsible for about 1/2 your debt. Spend all your money in the first turn for something usefull (e.g. additional garrisons for Epiros).

Forgett about Hellas and Makedonia: The Celts had already plundered it a few years ago, there is not much money in it. Pack your army on your last ship and make it to Italy. There, overrun the Romans. Epiros might or might not be attacked by the Maks the same time, but usualy they are to occupied with fighting KH for a couple of turns.

Make sure your last ship always ends its turn in a port of yours that it can not be attacked by pirates. You'll need it later and you'll don't have the money to build a new one.

Speed is everything: The Roman army is weak but will grow stronger every turn. Also, you are still sliding into the red as long as you don't have Capua and Rome. Once you have solved the Italian problem you should take every man left and make your glourious return to Greece. With Italy under your controll you should now have the money to pay for your army.

[Bootsiuv]

That's also an interesting tactic.

It makes me wonder....which peninsula has the potential to be wealthier in the end? Hellas or Italia?

[MiniMe]

No true Molosson'd EVER disband his elephants or abandon Taras!

There's an old dirty trick, I've just checked it:
1. take Pella and sack it;
2. now destroy ALL your sanitation, religious and social buildings in your four towns, sell all your blacksmiths and naval bays;
3. Desecrate Makedonian King Tomb: + 12600 Mnai and quite historical
4. Disband all of your ships but one.

Now you have 31200 Mnai - enough to start construction of TWO mines (Epidamnos & Pella) and order some troops to defend Taras from those savage Romans while you bring peace and prosperity to the poor people oppressed by tyranny of Makedon and KH plutocrats

However you have to do it right from the start or it'll be too late.

[konny]

It makes me wonder....which peninsula has the potential to be wealthier in the end? Hellas or Italia?

By the terms of trade, my vote goes for Italy: Those Karthagian towns are usualy very large and very rich. In an early Romani campaign I make nearly 1/3 of my money trading with these people (what often causes an economic crash, once at war with them). Taras can be another powerhouse in trade, especialy with Hellas. The downside is that you can only build mines down in Rhegion.

In Hellas you can have mines in Athens, Pella and the nearby Thracian lands. On the other hand, trade is a little limited because the nearby larger cities are mainly Eleutheroi (Pergamon, Byzantion, Halikarnassos).


From Roman and Epirote campaigns I can say you are at least unbelivable rich when you hold both. But, for the big deal you have to cross the Aegean and take the Greek cities in Asia Minor: they all have mines and a lot of trade potential.

[Landwalker]

No true Molosson'd EVER disband his elephants or abandon Taras!

There's an old dirty trick, I've just checked it:
1. take Pella and sack it;
2. now destroy ALL your sanitation, religious and social buildings in your four towns, sell all your blacksmiths and naval bays;
3. Desecrate Makedonian King Tomb: + 12600 Mnai and quite historical
4. Disband all of your ships but one.

Now you have 31200 Mnai - enough to start construction of TWO mines (Epidamnos & Pella) and order some troops to defend Taras from those savage Romans while you bring peace and prosperity to the poor people oppressed by tyranny of Makedon and KH plutocrats

However you have to do it right from the start or it'll be too late.

That's a very interesting take on the approach... I just might give it a whirl if my current campaign falls through (I have Pellas and Demetrias, and I'm besieging Korinthos, but I'm also about 19,000 in the hole. The garrison of Corinth is too strong for me to assault, even with the elephants (my assaults of Pellas and Demetrias have given me a healthy horror of trying to navigate huge-sized units, especially cavalry and elephants, through city streets, due to the abominable pathfinding), so I'm going to have to wait it out or hope they try to break the siege early. It'll be difficult when they do, since I lost about 3/4 of my Phalangitai Deuteroi and almost half of my pezhetairoi in the assault of Demetrios, thanks to raising their spears while trying to wander through the streets, then switching over to swords when the enemy cavalry caught them. Given that I'll easily be 35-40,000 in debt when Corinth comes around, the whole campaign depends on this siege. Success, and I'll be able to disband most of my army and take Chalkis with a smaller force while I slowly climb back into the black financially (I'm allied with the Koinon Hellenon against Macedonia--if Corinth falls I'm going to take some time to regroup and consolidate before going after Athens and Sparta). Failure, and I'll probably have a dead king, a massacred army, skeleton garrisons in the rest of my holdings, and financial catastrophe. Bring it on!

As far as desecrating the Aigai / Macedonian Royal Burial Grounds, it's awfully tempting (no doubt the reason Pyrrhus' mercenaries followed through with it). However, I don't know how great the "Increase in Trade Goods" is, or if the 12,500 is enough to offset the long-term benefits of increased trade. Of course, if I don't make it to the long term, the point is irrelevant...

Cheers.

Edit:

In other news, Caius Aurelius Cotta has finally laid siege to Taras. Hopefully he'll assault it, because I can't fight him off with a sally.

In the long run, I'd say that Italy and Hellas are awfully close. Assuming holdings from Mediolanum to Lilybaeum for Italy, in order to make it fair for Hellas I'd probably want to give them everything included in the starting holdings of Macedonia, Epeiros, and Koinon Hellenon (Except for Taras), as well as Byzantion. Although under initial conditions I would say Italy takes the edge here, I think in the long run (once the regional Eleutheroi cities have been captured), Hellas is probably the most profitable. Assuming you have trade rights with everyone, you'll be able to trade with Italy, Egypt, and Asia Minor, in addition to local trade and mining. Italy doesn't have the same mining benefits, and southern Gaul (the third partner, along with western Greece and North Africa) doesn't really have the same punch in terms of trade potential as Asia Minor. Just a thought.

[Bootsiuv]

Hmmm, some logical reasoning. I agree.

Good luck with Korinthos. And I would sally out and die fighting as opposed to just waiting to be starved out in Taras. Just a thought, but if you're gonna lose them anyways, you might as well take some Romans with you.

[Landwalker]

There are no words.... Instead of doing some of my great mound of homework (one of the seven wonders of the modern world), I did...

A heroic victory. The complete destruction of my elephants after countless kills. Utter chaos. The capture of Corinth.

A crash-to-desktop.



Cheers.

[Bootsiuv]

Ouch....that sucks. Might want to visit the bugs forum and mention it.

[paullus]

yes, you certainly should, i haven't had a ctd in months and months.

[Archibald]

Hi everyone, I olso have a question about Epeiros. Does Epeiros get reforms?
I cheated a litle bit to see does Epeiros realy get Pheraspides and Hypaspistai , I have built highest possible factional MIC,s in all of myn cities ant I can't recruit them.

[Sakkura]

Hi everyone, I olso have a question about Epeiros. Does Epeiros get reforms?
I cheated a litle bit to see does Epeiros realy get Pheraspides and Hypaspistai , I have built highest possible factional MIC,s in all of myn cities ant I can't recruit them.

Not that I know of. Hypaspistai are limited to Makedon and AS, while Pheraspidai are limited to those plus Baktria.
You can check it out yourself in the documentation inside your EB folder; there is a subfolder with unit cards.