Obesity a desease?

[Soulforged]

In my country (Argentina) there's as of late an obsession with reclaming from the government any ridicolous right a person's mind can come with. The new trend is obesity. Impulsed by a TV Show called "Cuestión de peso" (A question of weight) in which participants tell their sad stories of fatness. Tears are shed, people huged and laws reclaimed...Now I began to wonder as I saw them (a robust group of argentinian fat mans and womans) protesting before the national Congress, what was that they wanted exactly, what was what they called "Obesity Law", all kinds of funny images about forcing people to be fat or forcing them to not insult fat people passed through my mind...However, of course, it wasn't anything of the sort. What they want is to be treated for obesity. The reason: they claim obesity is a desease, with all its implications, including the oh so famous: its not my fault. The implications for the economy of this country (economy in a double sense here of political space and of the Economy) are great but because most backroomers can't really care about that, I will make the next question: I don't know everything about obesity, I was rather obess sometime in the past, but I don't presume to know everything about it. So I want to know the opinions of the regulars here specially those who are studying medicine.

Is obesity a desease?

EDIT: Gramar.

[Whacker]

Obesity isn't a disease, it's a condition.

There are multiple medical conditions which can cause moderate to severe obesity regardless of diet and exercise.

[CountArach]

If I recall, some Obesity is genertic or a disease, but the rest of it is well-round eating.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not their fault. Some people are born fit, fantastic athletes, others are naturally a bit obese:

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

There are multiple medical conditions which can cause moderate to severe obesity regardless of diet and exercise.

I'm not sure this is entirely true, as it would violate the first law of thermodynamics. If you take in fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight.

Certain conditions do pre-dispose people to putting on weight, making correct diet and exercise more important. There's always something you can do about it, though.

[Lemur]

I'm not sure this is entirely true, as it would violate the first law of thermodynamics. If you take in fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight.

True, but I've known one person who had some sort of thyroid trouble, and the weight naturally went to fat, rather than muscle. I suppose he could have starved himself to death, but that's hardly an optimal solution.

On the right medications, he was able to maintain a bit of balance. I felt some pity, though. I was born with a fast metabolism that converts everything to muscle at the slightest hint of exercise. No virtue on my part, just luck of the genome. No matter how sedentary my lifestyle, I look fit; it's unfair, and I know it.

Is obesity a disease? No. But it's a serious health problem. And once it gets far enough along to affect your insulin, it's a very serious problem. Big topic. Diet alone could take up a couple of threads.

[Ice]

I honestly wouldn't have a clue.

I'd say somewhat.

[Mikeus Caesar]

No.

Obesity is as much a disease as death. The only difference is you can stave off obesity throughout your life (with the exception of people having thyroid problems, which is very very few people) through eating a good balanced diet and doing some exercise everyday.

I'm not saying eat only fruit and run 3 miles a day, i'm just saying be sensible. Don't be stuffing yourself with 20 twinkies a day and only walking from your couch to your fridge.

In my honest opinion, the world could be cured of the 'obesity epidemic' if all those who were fat (except the aforementioned with natural problems) were forced into fat camps by their governments. Sods to their human rights, they got themselves there through their own foolishness.

EDIT: And as for those fatties that argue it's a genetic condition, your argument falls apart instantly. If it was a genetic condition, wouldn't we see an equal amount of fat people throughout history? We don't. Only in the last 40-50 years have people in Western countries had the money and the means to start buying fatty foods, and as a result most people go overboard and become leviathans.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Not to mean any insult but obesity is expected, we are designed to eat, when there is more food available we are designed to eat more.

The real mystery is why everyone is not obese!

From my limited Biological knowedge:

Take two people, one stores their excess more as muscle and another more as fat, the one who has more muscle will in turn need more food to maintain it whilst the one who stores it as fat will simply gain more reserves.

If and when food reserves become depleated which will fare better?

which is better suited to a hunter gatherer lifestyle? i.e. irregular amounts of food?

Now in modern times it is reversed, i see it as similar to Asthma what was once an advantage is no longer...

But this doesn't mean that obesity is unaviodable, we just need to be a bit cleverer about how people are fed.

Is it a disease? no i would say condition...

[Husar]

You mean a 1000 pound guy who cannot even move around is suited very well for a hunter and gatherer lifestyle?

I think fat people are mostly fat because they have a constant supply of food, if they had an irregular supply of food they'd be slim and if they actually had to work or hunt for their food they'd be rather slim as well.

[Productivity]

EDIT: And as for those fatties that argue it's a genetic condition, your argument falls apart instantly. If it was a genetic condition, wouldn't we see an equal amount of fat people throughout history? We don't. Only in the last 40-50 years have people in Western countries had the money and the means to start buying fatty foods, and as a result most people go overboard and become leviathans.

Some people are predisposed to putting on weight. I happen to be one of them - I eat what is a pretty low calory diet, I do stupid amounts of exercise etc. Yet I seem to allways be having difficulty keeping weight off me - I can't remember the last time when I thought that I looked trim.

True, I could cure it. I could go to 1800's diets etc. Unfortunately, that would probably bring all the problems to do with poor nutrition that such an action would bring as well. Death stops most major diseases but it's hardly desirable..

I'm not sure it should be classed as a disease, but I do think that there needs to be support put in place to help deal with it. As mentioned, I'm pretty obsessive about it and I can barely keep my weight under control - you shouldn't have to deal with all the crap on your own shoulders as far as I'm concerned.

Telling people to simply deal with it alone and stop crying is counterproductive at a personal level and at a national level. The only thing it does is boost the egos of those who short of other inspiration in their lives have to ridicule others.

Incidentally, I don't run 3 miles a day. I do 5. I can't remember the last time I ate anything that was effectively pure sugar, the biggest single source of sugar I ever eat in as apple.

[rory_20_uk]

People's body shape does vary, and the BMI is a pretty crude tool to use (most if not all heavyweight boxers are "obese")

But there is a difference between those that can't get chiselled abs (and I am certainly one of those - even when I was gym mad) and the tubs of lard I see every day.

Ask someone their health problems (as I do) and to date not one has mentioned obesity as a problem. Sure, osteoarthritis and type 2 diabetes are mentioned, but not the cause of these two - they are a tank.

Fast, junk food is way too available. In the UK, as the state has too pick up the tab to treat them I think the first place to start is with taxing fatty foods.

People are fat as they have far too many calories, do pitiful amounts of exercise and are ignorant / not bothered about the consequences.

And now Medicine can give gastric banding / bypasses. Again allowing overweight pigs to divorce themselves from all responsibility.

People these days (and I am generally one of them) take the easy route. Why use stairs when the lift is just there? Why walk to work when the car is there? Why eat nasty, healthy foods when the "reward" from junk is so much quicker?

[Craterus]

Now in modern times it is reversed, i see it as similar to Asthma what was once an advantage is no longer...

Off topic, but when was asthma an advantage? And how?

[woad&fangs]

People's body shape does vary, and the BMI is a pretty crude tool to use (most if not all heavyweight boxers are "obese")

Yep, the BMI says that LaDanian Tomlinson(a great American Football player) is Obese but he can probably run a 40 yard dash in 4.3 seconds. On topic, people do have different metabolisms. I can eat like a pig and still maintain my 5'8'', 120 pound girlish figure.(O the joys of being 16 ) Most other people can't do that. So some people are genetically more prone to obesity but they can still avoid it by burning more calories than they take in. It is the same thing as cancer. Your genes can give you a high or low likelyhood of getting cancer but smoking a pack of cigarettes per day isn't going to do you any favors.

[Soulforged]

Not their fault. Some people are born fit, fantastic athletes, others are naturally a bit obese:

That's a happy fatman, proud of what he did in life and not of how he looks now.

True, but I've known one person who had some sort of thyroid trouble, and the weight naturally went to fat, rather than muscle. I suppose he could have starved himself to death, but that's hardly an optimal solution.

What was the name of the desease your friend suffered? I've heard of it many times but couldn't come up with a name. Is it hypothyroidism or hiperthyroidism?

You're somewhat of a master of stadistics on this forum Lemur, I'll like to know how many people suffer from that desease in your country, if you don't mind...I ask this because I think is pretty rare. I don't know if in the USA there has been such a claim for such a law, but when I saw that many people uniting before Congress I couldn't help but think on the "alcoholism is a desease syndrome". So perhaps some of them did suffer a desease, but all of them...They were easily more than 1000 people.

Also I wonder, if this friend of yours was already treated then he was treated for a desease other than obesity, and therefor this people could also receive treatment and get it covered by their health plan (which is exactly what they're asking, even if they don't get jobs that easily because there's a slight discrimination problem).

Some people are predisposed to putting on weight. I happen to be one of them - I eat what is a pretty low calory diet, I do stupid amounts of exercise etc. Yet I seem to allways be having difficulty keeping weight off me - I can't remember the last time when I thought that I looked trim.

But how much do you weight? I understand if you don't want to say it, but this people asking for this rights were above 150 kilos.

People these days (and I am generally one of them) take the easy route. Why use stairs when the lift is just there? Why walk to work when the car is there? Why eat nasty, healthy foods when the "reward" from junk is so much quicker?

Exactly, I do the opposite.

So some people are genetically more prone to obesity...

Well but does that make it a desease? I mean can I control my impulses even if they're genetic by eating less or doing more exercise?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

You mean a 1000 pound guy who cannot even move around is suited very well for a hunter and gatherer lifestyle?

For a hunter gatherer being fatter would be an advantage as they would probably be otherwise quite healthy with the advantage of extra food reserves so when a time of less food came they would be more likely to survive.

There has never been much evolutionary incentive for people who only put on a certain amount of weight and then stop hence the existance of cronic obesity.

Off topic, but when was asthma an advantage? And how?

asthma is often the product of a very sensative immune system, such an immune system might normally be better able to deal with disease, in the absense of much diseases other allergens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergen can trigger a response.

I guess a clearer example to use would have been other soley allergic reactions...

[BigTex]

Obesity is not a disease. It's a state of mind.

People who are obese, using a fat % here, are that way because they simply consume more then they burn. Now there are those rare cases were the thyroid is the problem, but that is less then 1% of all cases IIRC. Those with thyroid problems have my complete sympathy horrible problem.

Low metabolism is also a horrible excuse. Some good exercise programs and some heavy lifting can put enough muscle on to change that. Low metabolism is usually a symptom of having a rather sedentary life.

The sad part about today is simply eating right is hard to understand. For most people all they see growing up is fast food and premade pre packaged foods. The amount of trans fats and other fats used to just preserve those is horrendous. People eat way to many calorie dense foods. Even the amount of fruit consumed is majorly down. In America alone most of the fruit a person consumes in a day is from fruit juices.

Ignorance, raw human nature and indulgance is the cause of almost all obesity.

Now back to lurking.

[Lemur]

What was the name of the desease your friend suffered? I've heard of it many times but couldn't come up with a name. Is it hypothyroidism or hiperthyroidism?

Pretty sure the condition that plays havoc with your weight is hypothyroidism.

I'll like to know how many people suffer from that desease in your country, if you don't mind...

I don't know, but there's evidence that the thyroid may be affected heavily by environmental pollutants. PCBs, for example, have been demonstrated to mess up an otherwise healthy thyroid gland.

That said, I don't think hypothyroidism is the cause of the obesity explosion. It's probably a symptom. Lemur's theory, short version: For millions of years, our main problem has been not getting enough calories to function, with starvation a constant threat. In the last sixty years or so, high-fat, high-salt, high-calorie foods have become plentiful, and are now cheaper and more available than healthy foods. Combine this with the fact that most people no longer walk or bike to work, and most jobs are now sedentary, and you've got a recipe for disaster.

A disease? No, not really, no more than mercury exposure was a disease for hatters in Victorian England. It's a huge freaking problem, though.

Also I wonder, if this friend of yours was already treated then he was treated for a desease other than obesity, and therefor this people could also receive treatment and get it covered by their health plan (which is exactly what they're asking, even if they don't get jobs that easily because there's a slight discrimination problem).

I think the division between disease and acquired condition is valid, but maybe pointless. From an insurer's perspective, it doesn't really matter if you acquired lung disease from smoking or randomly, it still has a liability, and it would prefer you did not get lung disease. As a society, we pay for the prematurely sick one way or another, so it's in our interest to have the healthiest possible citizens.

As I said a few posts ago, this is a HUGE topic, with many different bones of contention to gnaw on. Is obesity a national problem? Debatable. Should the dietary emphasis of Americans be changed? If so, how? Do food companies have any obligation to offer healthier options at supermarkets? If so, how much, and how should it be enforced? Do we distinguish between normal people who get fat and irresponsible people who get obese? If so, how? Do you accept that we wind up paying for the sick one way or another? If so, what should we do about it? Note Xiahou's argument in the Drug Legalization thread about how he didn't want to pay for others' bad choices. Ignoring, conveniently, the fact that he already does, both through taxes (Medicare) and insurance premiums.

Lots and lots to look at with this topic. Gotta admit, I'm not even certain where to start.

[naut]

If and when food reserves become depleated which will fare better?

Actually contrary to popular belief your body starts to digest it's own muscular cells before it begins to digest fat cells, because there are more nutrients in muscles. And in a hunter-gatherer society there would be no "obese" people, due to the scarcity of food and the none regular eating habits.

I also fail to see how asthma is a benefit, because if you can't effectively run you wouldn't be able to hunt. I think you have miss-interpreted why asthma levels are higher and more harmful now, which is pollution effecting the lungs and sinuses more readily.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Actually contrary to popular belief your body starts to digest it's own muscular cells before it begins to digest fat cells, because there are more nutrients in muscles. And in a hunter-gatherer society there would be no "obese" people, due to the scarcity of food and the none regular eating habits.

yep, generally when the muscles arnt being used much i believe (although i am not so sure about the more nutrients bit) but after that it moves onto fat stores...

Im not talking about obese hunter gatherers here, what i mean is say a hunter kills a Bison, now most of it can't be preserved for too long, so the hunter who can store more of the bisons energy stores as fat will be able to last longer until he eats again (useful when food is scarce) surely?

I also fail to see how asthma is a benefit, because if you can't effectively run you wouldn't be able to hunt. I think you have miss-interpreted why asthma levels are higher and more harmful now, which is pollution effecting the lungs and sinuses more readily.

asthma is often the product of a very sensative immune system, such an immune system might normally be better able to deal with disease, in the absense of much diseases other allergens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergen can trigger a response.

I guess a clearer example to use would have been other soley allergic reactions...

[Watchman]

Hunting plays a rather secondary fiddle in hunter-gatherer ecologies anyway AFAIK (although the people who take care of it - ie. the menfolk - tend to be only too happy to try to tell you different). The meat intake it provides is a bonus, not a staple; the latter comes from the gathering part.

Also, it's probably practically impossible for hunter-gatherers to develop much in the way of body fat in the first place; their lifestyle is too mobile and diet too varied and light on excess calories for it. Quite simply, they don't really have the opportunity to "store away" too much stuff.

Not that "primitive" peoples were necessarily exactly athletic-looking or healthily fed. Their diets are often by ecological necessity severely imbalanced, short on some necessary things and excessive on others. One anthropologist who went to live for a while among some tribe in the SE Asian archipelago noted that within months his weight had gone up noticeably and he'd developed a paunch in spite of constant exercise; simply because the staple diet was plants high on protein and carbohydrates.

Anyway, AFAIK in humans at least fat is primarily an energy reserve. We're not camels or polar bears. It's useful to have if you can't get food for a while, but won't last you very long already because it's got jack all in terms of vitamins and other peripheral stuff you need.

[naut]

Im not talking about obese hunter gatherers here, what i mean is say a hunter kills a Bison, now most of it can't be preserved for too long, so the hunter who can store more of the bisons energy stores as fat will be able to last longer until he eats again (useful when food is scarce) surely?

Fat maybe useful in moderation, but obesity would probably mean he could not catch the bison anyway. Which is what you're saying right? But after hunting the exertions would mean that muscle is developed rather than fat stores. Edit: See Watchman's post above.

I still don't exactly see the advantages of asthma, I know plenty of people with it and to be honest they couldn't run 100 metres if their lives depended on it. Surely it would be better to have neither asthma or allergies. And reading up on asthma tends to reveal it is not a positive medical condition.

asthma is often the product of a very sensative immune system

I have never heard it being caused by that, I'm under the impression that it is a chronic illness, identifiable through its chronic respiratory impairment.

[Watchman]

Ah right, I must correct the earlier piece about the anthropologist a bit now that I remember it better. The thing is his weight went down but waist got bigger - in other words, denser heavier muscle mass was getting replaced with the relatively light fat tissue.

[Ironside]

I have never heard it being caused by that, I'm under the impression that it is a chronic illness, identifiable through its chronic respiratory impairment.

The chronic respitory impairment is due to an immune reaction.

So the current trend to prevent astma from occuring is to let your children live a bit dirtier. That's to keep your paranoid immune system busy, to keep it from inventing threats (as it seems to do that when bored=too clean environment).

[Navaros]

No, obesity is not a disease.


Tonight I saw a story like the idea in the OP airing on my local news cast. Claming that obesity is partly genetic therefore that is what should be blamed. What a crock.

All humans have some screwed up genes ever since the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. So what? That does not make demonstrations of corrupted genes be "diseases", other perhaps than the general disease that all of mankind has via being cursed at the garden to be mortal and corrupted from the original perfect creation.

Obese people want to be told it's a disease so they can use their genes as an exscuse - a scapegoat - for their obesity. However, having a genetic desire to make one's self obese does not mean that the obese person must follow that desire and be a slave to it. Rather, the obsese person can tell that desire where to go, and stop obeying it.

Regardless of genetic defects which make one (sub-consciously) want to be obese, I guarantee that if they stop over-eating so much and workout at the gym multiple times per week, pretty soon they would not be obese any more.

Those complaining that obesity is a disease have it within their power to give themselves 100% effective self-treatment in these ways. If they choose not to, that's their own fault.

[Watchman]

Nah, there are legit enough cases of glandular imbalances and dysfunctions that make people absurdly prone to putting on weight.

Those do not account to but a tiny fraction of the actually fat people these days though. It's just plain a lifestyle "disease" nine times out of ten.

[naut]

Thanks for clearing that up Ironside; now I get what Byzantine Merc's getting at.

[CrossLOPER]

Did anyone else notice that the title says "desease"?

[Strike For The South]

Did anyone else notice that the title says "desease"?

ITS HIS SECOND LANGUAGE

[CrossLOPER]

ITS HIS SECOND LANGUAGE

Not to be elitist, but same here. In any case, I wasn't making fun of him. I just pointed out what I had previously overlooked.