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Thread: Faction pitch idea: To fill the gap in Carpathian basin

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  1. #1

    Talking Faction pitch idea: To fill the gap in Carpathian basin

    Hello there Europa Barbarorum II! First of all I would like to thank the mod creators for this incredible mod, that has kept me entertained for several years now, yet I have been compelled to create a user here on Totalwar.org.

    Now to the matter at hand: I would like to ask first of all if development is in such a state, that adding a faction would be impossible, too much work/slot issues/ exct. If yes, then please do not regard the following paragraph, just point this out! Thank you.

    Now back to matter at hand: the Carpathian basin is the forefront of Indo-European and Iranian migration into europe: 800 BC 'The Mezőcsát' culture/people (ancient Iranian people (their names are unkown), who became a part of the Cimmerians/Kimmerians (Greek: Κιμμέριοι), circa 500 BC, the so called "Alföldi" (southern plane) (Skythians who defeated the Cimmerians, and threw them across the river Danube) Sigynnae (researchers are debating to this day, are they Iranian tribe, or Thracian, one thing is certain they were part of the Iranian migration wave [subjects of the Agathyrsi (a people with a Skythian noble class, and ruling over mixed Thracian-Skythian people)], and in the 5th century BC the Illyrian Pannon people migrate to the eastern parts of transdanubia. Then from the 4th century BC all the way to circa 60-50 BC is marked by the Celtic period, the Scordisci, the Taurisci, and in 150 BC marks the arrival of the Boii people into the basin. In 55 BC, the Dacian ruler Burebista, king of an alliance of Dacian people, defeated the Celts, which allowed the creation of Dacian trading settlements found in modern day southern Slovakia. From 9 AD the Roman Empire conquers Pannonia Illyrica, and Pannonia which starts the Roman times, in which several uprisings are led by the Pannonians against the Romans, all being put down violently. During this period a vast number of settlements such as Aquinqum and Sophianae begin their rise as cultural and trading centers.

    Briefly the paragraph above this text explains what happens in the Carpathian basin during this time, as you can see, we had a very colourful past. Now onto my proposal:

    A new faction: the Pannon tribal alliance
    Starting areas would be Pannonica Illyrica, with the home town of Segestica and in terms of expansion, the following provinces would be lvl 1 Homeland resources: Dalmatia Illyria Helenike, Epeiros, Pannonia Lvl 2 would be Dacian provinces, and eastern Celtic provinces. The goal would be to conquer the entire Carpathian basin and expand along the coastline towards Greece, thus creating an opponent for the Boii, the Getai and the Epirots.
    The factions armed forces would include a mix of Illyrian light infantry and ranged troops, Celtic heavy infantry and perhaps even cavalry (evidence supports that the celts in this area did have horses, however these were more pony like not so suitable for riding as their steppe counterparts) , a small contigent of settled/semi nomadic Iranian (a few tribes of the settled Skythians and other Iranian peoples did remain) which would provide excellent foot archers (seeing as their migratory period had ended some two centuries ago for most of them, most likely they had abandoned the bow-horse warfare style) and Thracian forces (with a few Dacian forces), and along the coastline Greek milita forces aswell (capturing Dalmatia, the regional forces would most likely include Epeirot imitation Hoplites, aswell as light infantry and peltast who, according to the Romans fought quite well in a guerilla style warfare during the Illyrian wars). This would create a quite unique army, and would give additional depth to the already great EB experience in my point of view.

    However I have presented but a fraction of the history of the Carpathian basin, in short, without sources and/or further materials such as pictures exct. I just wished to pitch the idea, and if the EB team agrees I would gladly research this subject, in the case that it would be impossible to insert a new faction, then I would gladly offer my services in creating at least recruitable mercenaries in this region, that would represent the Pannon people/and the Carpathian people;

    I await your input;
    Diodredai
    Last edited by Diodredai; 05-31-2011 at 14:09.

  2. #2
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction pitch idea: To fill the gap in Carpathian basin

    By 272 BC Pannonia was almost entirely Keltic, process that began around the end of the 4th century and culminated with the Balkans' invasion...
    That said I think the Dalmatae or an Illyrian tribe would be interesting as their culture is pretty unique...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Faction pitch idea: To fill the gap in Carpathian basin

    First of all to answer your question yes, some of the Pannons were celticized. However not all of them: in the 2nd century BC, consuls Lucius Aurelius Cotta and Cornelius (his surname is not known) fought against the Segestani, however they were defeated [this happens 72 years after the timeline starts]. Analogy: usually if a territory is conquered by an alien culture, it takes several decades even generations for them to fully be in this case celticized, and even then, the ruling elite might be of an alien origin, however the people inhabiting the area won't change that much in terms of genetics, true they might adopt another language however their customs will mostly be the same.

    Please note that the proposed name is "Pannon tribal alliance" not Pannons. This implies, that other, non illyrian tribes may be part of the alliance. While it is true that most Upper Pannonia was conquered by Celtic peoples, however several historians including Publius Cornelius Tacitus, and Strabo clearly state that the Pannons live between the Illyr mountains and the Danube [although both of them lived +200 years after 272 BC], so let us presume that these territories were left untouched by the Celts. That means half of Pannonia. [to quote Strabo: ""On the other hand, almost the whole of Ardia is near the Adrias. But Paeonia is in the middle, and the whole of it too is high country. Paeonia is bounded on either side, first, towards the Thracian parts, by Rhodope, a mountain next in height to the Haemus, and secondly, on the other side, towards the north, by the Illyrian parts, both the country of the Autariatae and that of the Dardanians." "The tribes of the Pannonii are: the Breuci, the Andizetii, the Ditiones, the Peirustae, the Mazaei, and the Daesitiatae, whose leader is Bato, and also other small tribes of less significance which extend as far as Dalmatia and, as one goes south, almost as far as the land of the Ardiaei. "]

    This pretty much says that if we go with the Pannons, then we represent not one but several Pannonian tribes, not to mention the fact that the inhabitants of Pannonia include late Skythian peoples (see "Alföldi Skythians" [they threw the Cimmerians out of the Danube area], the remnants of other Iranian migrations) therefore they would have a small, bow based cavalry support [which would be unique] beside Celtic heavy infantry [note Pannonians were influenced by them and vice versa], Illyrian spear levies with greek influenced peltasts, Pannonians adopting Thracian military practices (evidence shows that several Dacian ruled territories had Pannonian settlements) and I could go on and on. Point is: besides the Vlachs, and the Albanians, [both of which gained importance well after 11th century BC], the Pannonians are the only tribe that fit into this timeline, and have great importance (please note that many Emperors were later on elected by Pannonian legions/legions stationed in Pannonia!).

    So just to be clear: the Pannons would represent the Illyrian culture. The Carpathian region this way will have a 4 way outcome: Sauromatae, Getai, Boii or Pannonian rule. Also if there is a strong Illyrian faction close to Rome, it can stop Romans landing and conquering the two provinces (Pannonia Illyrica/Dalmatae), thus playing as the Illyrians, one would have to defend against the immediate threat of the Boii, the Epirots, and later on in the game against Rome and the Getaii (which would be historically quite accurate).

  4. #4
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction pitch idea: To fill the gap in Carpathian basin

    The Carpathian basin was by 272 Keltic in aristocracy and most of the population...
    That by later years the urbanization of Bohemia and the roman advance made Keltoi retreat and focus to the north is another matter...
    I'd like to see more Illyrian culture too and was suggesting that could be more accurate to have a dalmatian tribe for the EB's start date instead of a pannonian one...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Faction pitch idea: To fill the gap in Carpathian basin

    It seems you skipped over a very important fact I stated: in the 2nd century BC the Segestani, a Pannon tribe clashed with the Romans. There is no mention whatsoever of other, non Pannon, Illyrian tribes showing any type of importance in the era, besides the Panonns. Not to mention: many important metal processing and mining areas were under their control.

    Now let's look at the Illyrian tribes:


    You can clearly see that southern Pannonia is inhabited by them. The Dalmatians would be however, inaccurate for this period as the Dalmatae didn't try to conquer, or invade other territories they mainly remained in a single area which was ultimatley conquered by the Romans in 76 BC (there were 3 Dalmatian wars from 156 BC - 76 BC). Plus having the Dalmatae represting Illyria would be again a bad idea because they would be too close to Macedon, Epeiros and the Getaii, thus would be destroyed early in the game, and without celtic/iranian support units they would be just a blend of Thracian, Greek and Illyrian forces.

    However we could debate endlessly the question is, is there place in EB 2 for a Pannon/Illyrian faction, or are the slots already decided and closed?

  6. #6
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction pitch idea: To fill the gap in Carpathian basin

    Quote Originally Posted by Diodredai View Post
    It seems you skipped over a very important fact I stated: in the 2nd century BC the Segestani, a Pannon tribe clashed with the Romans.
    Is 2nd century BC still 200-101 BC for everyone or was changed?
    In the end of the 3rd century BC that area was controlled and governed by Keltoi, having an independent pannonian tribe would be a fantasy, I suggested any tribe in dalmatia as that area was more or less independent...
    Last edited by Arjos; 05-30-2011 at 18:31.

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