Yeah I remember.... Cavaet EmptorOriginally Posted by Veresov
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Yeah I remember.... Cavaet Emptor
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Thats too bad.
I was waiting for the patch before I went out and bought Kingdoms. I just don't have the free time to waste fighting bugs... Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.... :)
Unfortunately, this sort of behavior by the PC game developers is becoming the norm rather than the exception. It's too bad really.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
So if we except this as fact (and this comment is to anyone still reading really) why then do we still purchase these games at release?
The only way to change the current gaming industry standard is through consumer activism. They know it, you know it, i know it, yet here we are at a fan site gushing over the latest mods that fix game issues and stamping around cussing out a dev who ventures in and confirms the process for you.
Its all on the consumer, always has been, always will be. If it dont sell, you can bet your ass they will fix it.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I take no joy (honestly) in saying this but.. I told you so, and have been telling you so.
CA is a business and the bottom line always, always, always, always, always takes precedent. Clearly CA has done the math and determined that their best course of action would be to let M2TW and Kingdoms go, as there is no more financial benefit to them in fixing it. One only need look at RTW post 1.5/1.6 to see a consistent theme. The hidden message here is that they believe they can afford to piss off 99% of us here reading these forums, lose all/some of us as customers, and still be able to sell the next game well. Loyalty is nothing, so long as one can sell enough copies to the next bunch of "casual gamers".
For the record, THIS is/was loyalty from day 1:
(not depicted is my long lost Mongol Invasion CD)
As Mel Gibson said in The Patriot, "I have run my course." If CA wishes to earn my business back, they need only listen to us, the real community.
Something else that I would like to point out that is significant in my view is Alpaca's posts. Alpaca's contributions to the modding community are well known, indeed I would refer to him as a "heavyweight" of sorts. It is very significant to me that he has apparently thrown in the towel as well, because he is not the first major figure in the modding community both here at the Org and the other major TW sites to say "hell with it".
Bottom line people. Vote with your dollars, this is the only way to send a message. Odin's posts are a spot on, it's not just you, but your friends as well, word of mouth works wonders. If enough people stop buying the games to make a serious dent, then and only then will CA be forced to stop and rethink their strategy. That said, we do need to be prepared for CA to "pull a Bethesda" so to speak, which is to say they might decide to largely abandon their core fanbase at some point and radically change direction with their games in attempt to reach a broader fanbase. I certainly hope not, but we shall see. It's largely in our hands everyone.
Last edited by Whacker; 10-19-2007 at 23:00.
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
It's all about bonuses if you don't make your deadlines bonuses for employees and the company are reduced. Why waste time on a patch when your feverously working to meet your next deadline. Tis the way of the world.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I agree, but we're all going to draw the line a little differently. I could live with the current state of M2TW and Kingdoms without another patch, but I'm not going to put up with one more game installing SecureRom without a means to completely remove it after the game is uninstalled. That's where I draw my personal line, and it's why I didn't buy Kingdoms. So, some of us are actually "voting with our wallets," but we may not all be doing it for the same exact reasons.
It would also help if we had more competitors in this market. I'll buy just about anything Stardock (GalCiv2) puts out at this point, because they have great support, a continuing patch schedule, zero DRM, and they don't treat their customers like software pirates. But they don't make the same type of game as CA, it's strategy-only. I wish there were a few more players in this market so I'd have a choice of options, and we could let Darwinian competition weed out the companies that deliver half-finished games and put intrusive DRM on their customers' computers.
Feaw is a weapon.... wise genewuhs use weuuhw! -- Jebe the Tyrant
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I agree.I take no joy (honestly) in saying this but.. I told you so, and have been telling you so.
CA is a business and the bottom line always, always, always, always, always takes precedent. Clearly CA has done the math and determined that their best course of action would be to let M2TW and Kingdoms go, as there is no more financial benefit to them in fixing it. One only need look at RTW post 1.5/1.6 to see a consistent theme. The hidden message here is that they believe they can afford to piss off 99% of us here reading these forums, lose all/some of us as customers, and still be able to sell the next game well. Loyalty is nothing, so long as one can sell enough copies to the next bunch of "casual gamers".
For the record, THIS is/was loyalty from day 1:
(not depicted is my long lost Mongol Invasion CD)
As Mel Gibson said in The Patriot, "I have run my course." If CA wishes to earn my business back, they need only listen to us, the real community.
Something else that I would like to point out that is significant in my view is Alpaca's posts. Alpaca's contributions to the modding community are well known, indeed I would refer to him as a "heavyweight" of sorts. It is very significant to me that he has apparently thrown in the towel as well, because he is not the first major figure in the modding community both here and at the Org to say "hell with it".
Bottom line people. Vote with your dollars, this is the only way to send a message. Odin's posts are a spot on, it's not just you, but your friends as well, word of mouth works wonders. If enough people stop buying the games to make a serious dent, then and only then will CA be forced to stop and rethink their strategy. That said, we do need to be prepared for CA to "pull a Bethesda" so to speak, which is to say they might decide to largely abandon their core fanbase at some point and radically change direction with their games in attempt to reach a broader fanbase. I certainly hope not, but we shall see. It's largely in our hands everyone.
trolls whacker's post, etc etc.
runs off to find more whacker post's
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Shouldn't you then employ someone who can actually deliver within that timeframe?
I agree. I wish I had informed my friends sooner.
Some people get by with a little understanding
Some people get by with a whole lot more - A. Eldritch
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Bolded emphasis mine. Well said, but the reason one patches their games is to both avoid lawsuits and to maintain reputation/satisfied customers. To my knowledge noone has every tried a lawsuit or class action suit for a horribly unpatched, broken game, but it'd be interesting to see how one would play out. $50 isn't chump change for anyone these days. As for maintaining customer sat, it boils down to a calculated risk. Are the majority of customers satisfied? Can they "live" with what you've put out? Are you likely to drive them and future customers away given the current status? Are there any significant repercussions in the marketplace that would affect sales due to the "infamy" of having a poorly patched game? Questions like these go into the math that management uses to decide whether or not they patch. For a parallel situation, look at what happened with KOTOR2, it had a token patch, and then was completely abandoned by CA and Obsidian. They made their money, and the fans be damned.
Another worthy point, but to be fair, any project both large and small is subject to any number of snags, roadblocks, delays, etc, no matter how competent the technical folks and leadership team are. If one looks at some of the more experienced developer studios, one can see general trends where both game release dates are somewhat generalized (eg. 3Q2008), and they hit those deadlines with a product that's in good shape at release. Conversely, the "when it's done" mantra doesn't always work either, as people by nature have expectations of deadlines that they can look forward to.
Don't feel bad mate, it took me several times before I learned my lesson, I know others are in the same boat.
INSOLENCE!!!!
Last edited by Whacker; 10-19-2007 at 22:58.
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I view the SecureRom issue as seperate from support. I dont buy games at release, I buy them after 6 months so patches and mods can fix glaring bugs. I will play MTW2 as is, without kingdoms.
I am no computer techy, but I read the boards pretty avidly and the SecureRom issue has been discussed by people who know far more then I (didz, whacker to name a few).
I think your point is fair, competition breeds better output from the dev, but in my view that does not address the real problem. As I have stated, I believe its simple supply and demand economics here. I understand these guys need to eat, and perfections is a hard concept to attain.It would also help if we had more competitors in this market. I'll buy just about anything Stardock (GalCiv2) puts out at this point, because they have great support, a continuing patch schedule, zero DRM, and they don't treat their customers like software pirates. But they don't make the same type of game as CA, it's strategy-only. I wish there were a few more players in this market so I'd have a choice of options, and we could let Darwinian competition weed out the companies that deliver half-finished games and put intrusive DRM on their customers' computers.
It does not however absolve all of us from being part of the problem, these games are being pumped out because consumers buy them, the whole industry is geared around postive reviews from online mags, gold releases, patches released a week after release, encouraged modders, more patches from user input.
The only aspect of the equation that is out of the gaming industries control is the consumption of the consumer, and it is the only thing that will change these circumstances.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Well, I learned my lesson after seeing what mess RTW really was. I just didn't take into account that some kind people will actually spend their hard earned money to give me a TW game as a gift. But as I said, that's quite unlikely to happen again.
I frankly still cannot understand how people, as the customers, can just shake their heads and say "you got away with it this time... well, the last couple of times.... ok, more than a few times, but I'll trust you one more time and you better not do it again with ETW." I mean, come on...
Some people get by with a little understanding
Some people get by with a whole lot more - A. Eldritch
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I'M TELLING MOMMY!!!!!BIG MEANIE
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
The wait six months policy is a solid one, after I waited six months for Rome: TW and the community still loudly said it was an unfinished, unpolished mess I gave up. I've never bought Rome or it's expansions, despite loving MTW (And especially VI) and Shogun quite a lot. With MTWII it seemed that the 1.2 patch satisfactorily took care of the most glaring bugs and so I sucked it up and snagged the game. While the AI is disappointing I've still found the game enjoyable, but I'm very glad I waited. SecuRom killed Kingdoms for me, and this idea of ending support for Kingdoms/MTWII with no patches makes me very glad I didn't purchase the former. CA moved off my trusted developers list with Rome, but this decision puts them squarely on my ban list.
As with anything else you might buy gamers have a right to functional products, particularly to functions used in advertising to sell the game. If you are unwilling to release a product that works, and unwilling to fix it after you release it broken, you will rapidly find that many of us are unwilling to pay you for it.
Good luck CA. Seems like you'll need it.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Whacker: Yes, in fact I was already wondering if I should buy M2TW but decided to give CA another chance (and give CA: OZ a first chance). With Kingdoms I was a lot more hesitant, and as a result I don't have it yet.
Somewhere in between I realized that CA officially decided to be a "big bad mean company" on the lines of Microsoft
We shall see... I for one am not at all optimistic about CA. It already sounds like it's going to be another rushed game with glaring bugs that were not anticipated and caught the guys totally unawares
I don't agree that this approach is the natural state of things though. Looking at companies like Blizzard (who incidentally don't have an external publisher iirc), reputation today is a hard currency. If CA suddenly find themselves bereft of any modding community, or community in general, to speak of, they will definitely perceive a drop in expansion sales for ETW. Casual gamers will be their answer to such a thing, so I do hope that we'll get some competition like some other posters here, because casual gamers probably won't buy two games of the same type.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I always knew RTW was their last greatest product.. it's the only TW game me ever purchased/played anyway. and I'm not regretin' it :P
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
So, I take it there was never any intention to support the game any further once it was released since that's considered past "schedule" and all resources became committed elsewhere. Considering their own track record for previous games, it is unbelievable how staff can say they "anticipate no issues" for this one. As in m2tw, I wonder how some of the bugs even made it past testing or if CA chose to ignore them thinking they could get away with it. Advertising features like Khalmar union and Welsh reinforcements in the game, using them as selling points, and then refusing to fix the broken features is sheer arrogance and highly insulting to customers who paid to see them included. And to date, of course, not a damned word on Securom. The company has lost all credibility with me.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
i agree wholeheartedly with what whacker and odin and others are sayings.
it is only the consumers dollers that will change anything unfortunately for us who look for long term enjoyment of a game and take immense enjoyment from minute details ( V&V in MTW) the games consumer base seems to be have a majority of casual gamers who will have moved on to the next game so quickly that they will only notice the most glaring bugs. and unfortunately TW now seemes to be geared towards this market.
although i would have stilled bought kingdoms even without the support just to play ltc 4 (at the right price) securom was where my line was drawn. i dont spend money and time keeping my pc free of unwanted software (malicious or not is not the issue) for someone to install one so he can prevent me from copying?playing a game i already have! and o top of that if i dont want to play the game anymore i cant install it! doesnt make sense to me
"Forgiveness is between them and god, my job is to arrange the meeting"
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Exactly, and TW is moving towards being a game that my 8 year old neice can and will play. "Let's give 'em eye candy and easy playability" is the way to go, "let's make it graphically wonderful and release an new piece of dog poo that the kids will badger their parents for" is the marketing strategy that they have so obviously adopted.
Fine, but they won't see another penny of my money as I'll just buy second hand. I won't give CA another penny of my money while they release crap like this and refuse to fix it because they are busy releasing the next piece of half finished rubbish. Now I'm aware that they won't care about my money because someone else will fill my shoes, but at least I wont be fooled again, and that's good for my soul.
And when are people going to stop sucking up to the likes of SenzeiTW, starting their posts with things like "I really appreciate you reply/concerns/time" etc yet finishing making a point of how disappointed they are. I'll make no bones about it, I am hacked off with the quality of CA's products and thought his post was patronising in the extreme.
I just can't wait for someone to fill CA's vacant TW shoes.
.
A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn. - Blackadder
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Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
It is in our better interest that the person reading our posts be favorably disposed to us personally. The likeliness of things changing may be very small, but it would be zero if we manage to convince him that we are, from his perspective, unreasonable and there is no sense in wasting time trying to please us. If he has read much on this board, he has already seen many posts that make no bones about our feelings about CAs recent products and practices.And when are people going to stop sucking up to the likes of SenzeiTW, starting their posts with things like "I really appreciate you reply/concerns/time" etc yet finishing making a point of how disappointed they are. I'll make no bones about it, I am hacked off with the quality of CA's products and thought his post was patronising in the extreme.
I just can't wait for someone to fill CA's vacant TW shoes.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Indeed, it's possible to be polite (for the most part) while still delivering a "You sux lol" message. In fact, delivery is often the most important part.
From our perspective, we appreciate CA's interactions with the community. Dialogue is critical to ensuring that our concerns and issues are properly raised and addressed. Coming from a similiar mindset, I can appreciate how some folks prefer to be blunt and forward on topics, but after being married for almost 5 years now I've learned to appreciate how to soften a message some.
Now, with that said, I think most of us would agree with you Slug. While we appreciate SenseiTW's posting, there really was no real message of value whatsoever. It's not that we don't recognize statements for what they are worth, it's that we must maintain our positions staunchly, and stay our course as long as we see fit, and we must be civil and level headed as we go about it.
It boils down to "These games are garbage, you jerks never listen to us, screw you and die, etc etc" vs "We appreciate your interactions, and are deeply concerned about the current status of the games, namely in the areas of ... etc etc". Which would you rather listen to, honestly?
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Disagree.
its in our better intrest to remove the person reading this from the equation completely and take complete responsibility for our choice to purchase the game.
Its so simple that its hard for me to fathom why others make it complex with demands and expectations for performance and patches from devs. There in a business where the business model dictates this outcome, fueled by the purchase of the consumer.
Remove the fuel and the model ceases to be effective, hence change.
Whinning about a patch on a fan site might garnish some attention, but as evidenced by the thread title, its hardly effective. Talk with your wallet fella's.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
A few things.
I haven't had any problems playing other games with securom on kingdoms, though I cannot see anything on their manual or packaging that says they do. (Maybe I'm just blind)
Also, I don't give a toss that they won't release another patch. Sure, it's a pain those features mentioned in the manual not being there, but it's still a good game, no matter how much you claim it's a load of 'half finished rubbish'
I will be getting Empire, and maybe others after that. No matter how buggy, or how crap the AI is, I still enjoy playing them. And how can you say that earlier games before RTW were better? I got the PC Gamer version of MTW/VI and I always get a CTD when I play a campaign. If that's not game destroying, nothing is.
And also, you can all boycott CA, but I don't think it will make a huge difference, as there will always be a fresh bunch of newbs to fill the gap.
This is the most clichéd and stereotyped saying ever, but get a life. It's a computer game, not a case of every potato having a worm in it or something.
Last edited by Marcus Orentius; 10-23-2007 at 18:45.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
The only thing we can do now is hope to god that they listen to our concerns about the next game. If not then there's not much we can do other than not buy the game, but that won't help much because we're too small of a group to have any really effect on the money they'll make from the game. So, we're basically screwed unless CA decides that we're worth listening too, but I highly doubt they care much about our concerns. What can you do?M2TW will be the last game from CA I'll buy, unless their are some drastic changes from M2TW to ETW.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Telling a message thread full of posters to "get a life" is very cavalier of you, particularly since your replying in the same thread i assume that helped you draw the conclusion that we needed to get a life in the first place?
Of course one shouldnt assume, but wouldnt that be hypocrticial of you?
No matter, your technically correct on a lot of points, the game isnt horrible, was playable at release and has had support. On top of all that the game itself is stunning in its scope and beauty of battles. However the devil is always in the details and while your most likely right, that a 100 or so customers chose not to buy the next title wont really effect the final outcome of the TW series, it will absolve said people from responsiblity from supporting a process they percieve to be broken (based on the comments here).
Thus, no more hypocrisy marcus
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
To be honest I think they listen, and i think they attempt to incorporate as much of our feedback as possible. This isnt a CA issue really, its an industry issue. Most games are released 90% of the way there and the rest is left to be sorted out by prepaying customers and free modders.The only thing we can do now is hope to god that they listen to our concerns about the next game. If not then there's not much we can do other than not buy the game, but that won't help much because we're too small of a group to have any really effect on the money they'll make from the game. So, we're basically screwed unless CA decides that we're worth listening too, but I highly doubt they care much about our concerns. What can you do?
Rather brilliant business model if you ask me, and while I dont advocate purchasing games at release, I think if you had waited 6 months, bought MTW2, got something like LTC 3.0 you'd have a fine investment for your money.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Ok, it was hypocritical, but I just felt like saying it. It's just that I feel people are putting too much heart and soul into bitching about a computer game of all things. I know I'm outnumbered, and will probably be flamed to death, but i don't really care. It's fun.
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
It dosent make your point invalid Marcus but, well never mind, you really dont care.Ok, it was hypocritical, but I just felt like saying it. It's just that I feel people are putting too much heart and soul into bitching about a computer game of all things. I know I'm outnumbered, and will probably be flamed to death, but i don't really care. It's fun.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I bet CA loves suckers who think in similar terms as you, because that is what CA is treating you like- a sucker...who will cheerfully buy a product that is half finished...do you do the same with TV's, stereos etc? Im sure Sony would love to hear from you and exchange some of your cash for a broken car stereo or some other bit of kit they have hanging around a factory somewhere...
In fact I find it completely inconceivable that anyone could find fault with the people in this thread who have expressed dismay and anger at CA's half assed attitude towards game support...it really boggles the mind.
"England expects that every man will do his duty" Lord Nelson
"Extinction to all traitors" Megatron
"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such and such." Homer Simpson
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Just a general reminder (not pointed at anyone, I swear) to keep this thread civil. Criticism is a good thing and healthy for the forum and the community as a whole, so long as it is done constructively. Insulting CA and other posters does not help anyone and is a bad thing. Thank you for your cooperation.
Last edited by TinCow; 10-23-2007 at 19:59.
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