No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms (update: Kingdoms patch announced)

[Veresov]

I have to say after reading all the posts that the majority of you posters have been extremely naive. CA has never supported its products adequately and has been blowing smoke by blaming the game publishers, deadlines, and ofcourse the "suits". Remember Activision and how everything was their fault and how much better things would be under Sega? Seriously, if there was an honest intent to support any of their games, there would be support. Its that simple.

Expect more of the same with 'Empire'. It will have loads of eye candy but as always will be at the expense of gameplay.

[Odin]

Remember Activision and how everything was their fault and how much better things would be under Sega?

Yeah I remember.... Cavaet Emptor

[invalidopcode]

Thats too bad.

I was waiting for the patch before I went out and bought Kingdoms. I just don't have the free time to waste fighting bugs... Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.... :)

Unfortunately, this sort of behavior by the PC game developers is becoming the norm rather than the exception. It's too bad really.

[Odin]

Unfortunately, this sort of behavior by the PC game developers is becoming the norm rather than the exception. It's too bad really.

So if we except this as fact (and this comment is to anyone still reading really) why then do we still purchase these games at release?

The only way to change the current gaming industry standard is through consumer activism. They know it, you know it, i know it, yet here we are at a fan site gushing over the latest mods that fix game issues and stamping around cussing out a dev who ventures in and confirms the process for you.

Its all on the consumer, always has been, always will be. If it dont sell, you can bet your ass they will fix it.

[Zenicetus]

The only way to change the current gaming industry standard is through consumer activism. They know it, you know it, i know it, yet here we are at a fan site gushing over the latest mods that fix game issues and stamping around cussing out a dev who ventures in and confirms the process for you.

Its all on the consumer, always has been, always will be. If it dont sell, you can bet your ass they will fix it.

I agree, but we're all going to draw the line a little differently. I could live with the current state of M2TW and Kingdoms without another patch, but I'm not going to put up with one more game installing SecureRom without a means to completely remove it after the game is uninstalled. That's where I draw my personal line, and it's why I didn't buy Kingdoms. So, some of us are actually "voting with our wallets," but we may not all be doing it for the same exact reasons.

It would also help if we had more competitors in this market. I'll buy just about anything Stardock (GalCiv2) puts out at this point, because they have great support, a continuing patch schedule, zero DRM, and they don't treat their customers like software pirates. But they don't make the same type of game as CA, it's strategy-only. I wish there were a few more players in this market so I'd have a choice of options, and we could let Darwinian competition weed out the companies that deliver half-finished games and put intrusive DRM on their customers' computers.

[Odin]

I agree, but we're all going to draw the line a little differently. I could live with the current state of M2TW and Kingdoms without another patch, but I'm not going to put up with one more game installing SecureRom without a means to completely remove it after the game is uninstalled. That's where I draw my personal line, and it's why I didn't buy Kingdoms. So, some of us are actually "voting with our wallets," but we may not all be doing it for the same exact reasons.

I view the SecureRom issue as seperate from support. I dont buy games at release, I buy them after 6 months so patches and mods can fix glaring bugs. I will play MTW2 as is, without kingdoms.

I am no computer techy, but I read the boards pretty avidly and the SecureRom issue has been discussed by people who know far more then I (didz, whacker to name a few).

It would also help if we had more competitors in this market. I'll buy just about anything Stardock (GalCiv2) puts out at this point, because they have great support, a continuing patch schedule, zero DRM, and they don't treat their customers like software pirates. But they don't make the same type of game as CA, it's strategy-only. I wish there were a few more players in this market so I'd have a choice of options, and we could let Darwinian competition weed out the companies that deliver half-finished games and put intrusive DRM on their customers' computers.

I think your point is fair, competition breeds better output from the dev, but in my view that does not address the real problem. As I have stated, I believe its simple supply and demand economics here. I understand these guys need to eat, and perfections is a hard concept to attain.

It does not however absolve all of us from being part of the problem, these games are being pumped out because consumers buy them, the whole industry is geared around postive reviews from online mags, gold releases, patches released a week after release, encouraged modders, more patches from user input.

The only aspect of the equation that is out of the gaming industries control is the consumption of the consumer, and it is the only thing that will change these circumstances.

[Whacker]

I take no joy (honestly) in saying this but.. I told you so, and have been telling you so.

CA is a business and the bottom line always, always, always, always, always takes precedent. Clearly CA has done the math and determined that their best course of action would be to let M2TW and Kingdoms go, as there is no more financial benefit to them in fixing it. One only need look at RTW post 1.5/1.6 to see a consistent theme. The hidden message here is that they believe they can afford to piss off 99% of us here reading these forums, lose all/some of us as customers, and still be able to sell the next game well. Loyalty is nothing, so long as one can sell enough copies to the next bunch of "casual gamers".

For the record, THIS is/was loyalty from day 1:

(not depicted is my long lost Mongol Invasion CD)

As Mel Gibson said in The Patriot, "I have run my course." If CA wishes to earn my business back, they need only listen to us, the real community.

Something else that I would like to point out that is significant in my view is Alpaca's posts. Alpaca's contributions to the modding community are well known, indeed I would refer to him as a "heavyweight" of sorts. It is very significant to me that he has apparently thrown in the towel as well, because he is not the first major figure in the modding community both here at the Org and the other major TW sites to say "hell with it".

Bottom line people. Vote with your dollars, this is the only way to send a message. Odin's posts are a spot on, it's not just you, but your friends as well, word of mouth works wonders. If enough people stop buying the games to make a serious dent, then and only then will CA be forced to stop and rethink their strategy. That said, we do need to be prepared for CA to "pull a Bethesda" so to speak, which is to say they might decide to largely abandon their core fanbase at some point and radically change direction with their games in attempt to reach a broader fanbase. I certainly hope not, but we shall see. It's largely in our hands everyone.

[sassbarman]

It's all about bonuses if you don't make your deadlines bonuses for employees and the company are reduced. Why waste time on a patch when your feverously working to meet your next deadline. Tis the way of the world.

[hrvojej]

It's all about bonuses if you don't make your deadlines bonuses for employees and the company are reduced. Why waste time on a patch when your feverously working to meet your next deadline. Tis the way of the world.

Shouldn't you then employ someone who can actually deliver within that timeframe?

Seriously, if there was an honest intent to support any of their games, there would be support. Its that simple.

I agree. I wish I had informed my friends sooner.

[Whacker]

It's all about bonuses if you don't make your deadlines bonuses for employees and the company are reduced. Why waste time on a patch when your feverously working to meet your next deadline. Tis the way of the world.

Bolded emphasis mine. Well said, but the reason one patches their games is to both avoid lawsuits and to maintain reputation/satisfied customers. To my knowledge noone has every tried a lawsuit or class action suit for a horribly unpatched, broken game, but it'd be interesting to see how one would play out. $50 isn't chump change for anyone these days. As for maintaining customer sat, it boils down to a calculated risk. Are the majority of customers satisfied? Can they "live" with what you've put out? Are you likely to drive them and future customers away given the current status? Are there any significant repercussions in the marketplace that would affect sales due to the "infamy" of having a poorly patched game? Questions like these go into the math that management uses to decide whether or not they patch. For a parallel situation, look at what happened with KOTOR2, it had a token patch, and then was completely abandoned by CA and Obsidian. They made their money, and the fans be damned.

Shouldn't you then employ someone who can actually deliver within that timeframe?

Another worthy point, but to be fair, any project both large and small is subject to any number of snags, roadblocks, delays, etc, no matter how competent the technical folks and leadership team are. If one looks at some of the more experienced developer studios, one can see general trends where both game release dates are somewhat generalized (eg. 3Q2008), and they hit those deadlines with a product that's in good shape at release. Conversely, the "when it's done" mantra doesn't always work either, as people by nature have expectations of deadlines that they can look forward to.

I agree. I wish I had informed my friends sooner.

Don't feel bad mate, it took me several times before I learned my lesson, I know others are in the same boat.

trolls whacker's post, etc etc.

runs off to find more whacker post's

INSOLENCE!!!!

[hrvojej]

Don't feel bad mate, it took me several times before I learned my lesson, I know others are in the same boat.

Well, I learned my lesson after seeing what mess RTW really was. I just didn't take into account that some kind people will actually spend their hard earned money to give me a TW game as a gift. But as I said, that's quite unlikely to happen again.

I frankly still cannot understand how people, as the customers, can just shake their heads and say "you got away with it this time... well, the last couple of times.... ok, more than a few times, but I'll trust you one more time and you better not do it again with ETW." I mean, come on...

[Csargo]

INSOLENCE!!!!

I'M TELLING MOMMY!!!!! BIG MEANIE

[Csargo]

I take no joy (honestly) in saying this but.. I told you so, and have been telling you so.

CA is a business and the bottom line always, always, always, always, always takes precedent. Clearly CA has done the math and determined that their best course of action would be to let M2TW and Kingdoms go, as there is no more financial benefit to them in fixing it. One only need look at RTW post 1.5/1.6 to see a consistent theme. The hidden message here is that they believe they can afford to piss off 99% of us here reading these forums, lose all/some of us as customers, and still be able to sell the next game well. Loyalty is nothing, so long as one can sell enough copies to the next bunch of "casual gamers".

For the record, THIS is/was loyalty from day 1:

(not depicted is my long lost Mongol Invasion CD)

As Mel Gibson said in The Patriot, "I have run my course." If CA wishes to earn my business back, they need only listen to us, the real community.

Something else that I would like to point out that is significant in my view is Alpaca's posts. Alpaca's contributions to the modding community are well known, indeed I would refer to him as a "heavyweight" of sorts. It is very significant to me that he has apparently thrown in the towel as well, because he is not the first major figure in the modding community both here and at the Org to say "hell with it".

Bottom line people. Vote with your dollars, this is the only way to send a message. Odin's posts are a spot on, it's not just you, but your friends as well, word of mouth works wonders. If enough people stop buying the games to make a serious dent, then and only then will CA be forced to stop and rethink their strategy. That said, we do need to be prepared for CA to "pull a Bethesda" so to speak, which is to say they might decide to largely abandon their core fanbase at some point and radically change direction with their games in attempt to reach a broader fanbase. I certainly hope not, but we shall see. It's largely in our hands everyone.

I agree.

trolls whacker's post, etc etc.

runs off to find more whacker post's