No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms (update: Kingdoms patch announced)

[Puzz3D]

I doubt that is true. I thought the rationale for not patching M2TW to Kingdoms standard was because the code had diverged two much between the two products - it would be too much work.

Code divergence can't be the issue. Kingdoms started with the M2TW battle engine code, so all that has to be done is to apply the same changes to the M2TW battle engine. What CA obviously considered to be too much work was rebalancing and debugging it. This is the bind you get into when you are still fixing battle engine mechanics in the expansion a year after initial release and the deadline to end-of-life the product is approaching.

I don't see much of a difference between Kingdoms and the earlier expansions.

That's because you aren't particularly concerned with battle mechanics. In all the previous games, improvements to the battle engine were incorporated into the main game.

[Zenicetus]

Code divergence can't be the issue. Kingdoms started with the M2TW battle engine code, so all that has to be done is to apply the same changes to the M2TW battle engine. What CA obviously considered to be too much work was rebalancing and debugging it. This is the bind you get into when you are still fixing battle engine mechanics in the expansion a year after initial release and the deadline to end-of-life the product is approaching.


That's because you aren't particularly concerned with battle mechanics. In all the previous games, improvements to the battle engine were incorporated into the main game.

Well, not defending CA here.... but the last expansions before Kingdoms for M2TW were BI and Alexander for RTW. Both of those were non-overlapping in time period and unit types with the original game, so it didn't expose any issues with rebalancing the original RTW units or adjusting the AI.

I think that's where CA boxed themselves into a corner with Kingdoms. They released an expansion that covers the same time period and uses many of the same units as the original game. This inevitably begs for comparison with the original game, and people will (rightly) gripe about not extending those changes to the original game. This didn't happen with BI and Alexander; they only had to debug and playtest one game, not two.

The lesson there (IMO) is -- don't make an overlapping expansion, unless you're absolutely sure you have the resources to rebalance the original game at the same time. Otherwise it's best to take the non-overlapping approach that BI and Alexander did. Just my opinion.

[Whacker]

Respectfully to Odin and Ramses and others, petitions absolutely can and do work very well, when they are properly managed and executed. As for being "brute force", I'd somewhat disagree, as when they are done well they are powerful tools with elegant execution. Even then, sometimes "brute force" is what it takes to get a developer/publisher to move on an issue that would otherwise be ignored or dropped.

I think Puzz also said it best, and is what I truly suspect is the reason behind CA stating they won't listen; it makes them look very bad. Petitions also tend to draw quite a bit of the silent majority out of the woodwork as opposed to simple threads, which carry different weight and connotations. The other major issue that is key is that petitions and organized movements by gamers tend to be suppressed heavily. I'm not the least bit surprised that this happens at the .com, those are official forums and nothing can be said or done there that casts too much of a negative light on anything related to CA or the publishers. What does get annoying, as econ so pointed out, is when the modship at the Org and Twcenter gets too heavy handed towards legitimate forms of criticism, and efforts by the gamers with a genuine concern and good intentions that tend to get trashed by the fanboys, trolls, and paid shills. When the overall "mood" at the two major fan sites tends to take a dive, I'd think that'd be a telling message that CA and Sega would do well to heed. Further, while Puzz is right about CA possibly taking action against the Org and TWcenter, I think that would be a final "nail in the coffin" so to speak that would truly drive a very, very large chunk of their existing and possible future customer base away. A mod that I respect here once used the phrase in another thread that "CA bashing is a cancer that is eating away at the Org", to this I can only respond that I politely disagree. First I don't feel that what's occuring here is bashing at all, by and large the comments in this thread and others are well stated, delivered, and supported. Second, I think that the figurative "cancer", which I equate to the general dissatisfaction, is a symptom, not a cause.

I want nothing more than to have my good old TW games back, but I'm sick and tired of the dumbing-down mass-marketing ADD-appeasing path that the games have been taking, the shoddy support, major bugs, and lack of patching, and being treated like a criminal with facist DRM. The only way to get this message to CA is for those of us who are like minded to keep repeating our message until CA listens or we get tired/silenced, and vote with our wallets.

[Noir]

I agree with everything you say Whacker except for this:

What does get annoying, as econ so pointed out, is when the modship at the Org and Twcenter gets too heavy handed towards legitimate forms of criticism, and efforts by the gamers with a genuine concern and good intentions that tend to get trashed by the fanboys, trolls, and paid shills.

I have been many times critical of CA and the newer games and seen others being too here at the org - as long as that was expressed in a concise, polite and impersonal manner, all such posts were left in place. I can't speak for TW centre as i dont frequent there, but there isn't such a problem at the org as far as i can see and also econ21 was being to my understanding ironic.

Noir

[Whacker]

I have been many times critical of CA and the newer games and seen others being too here at the org - as long as that was expressed in a concise, polite and impersonal manner, all such posts were left in place. I can't speak for TW centre as i dont frequent there, but there isn't such a problem at the org as far as i can see and also econ21 was being to my understanding ironic.

Perhaps we are getting a bit offtopic, but I would offer this in response.

My intent wasn't to imply that the overly harsh modship has been constant or that any forms of dissent were silenced. Specifically in the Citadel there have been period of ... "flux", where the heavy-handedness has reared it's ugly head, most of those occured around the initial game release and the subsequent patches. Many people have expressed their opinions in an acceptable manner, the problem that I've had is that there have been more than just a few threads that started well and had excellent discourse, that were summarily closed after one or two posts by trolls attempting (successfully) to derail the thread, rather than just deleting posts and/or handing out warning points. Like I said, it's not a constant thing nor is it... "excessive", but it's happened more than a few times to the point where it's been annoying and left a bad taste in my mouth. I realize the mods are human, but some of what's occured was just blatantly unreasonable in my view.

/shrug

[Noir]

Fair enough Whalker,

i can't deny personal experiences especially when i wasn't present - this is off topic indeed and before leaving it on my part behind for good i would say that i find the .org moderation fair and impartial indeed; i have been cautioned twice so far - both times fairly, and with proper explanations. I never had a critical post that was concise, polite and impersonal deleted or even cautioned.

Back on topic Noir!

[TosaInu]

Hello,

There are no problems with voicing critics. Apart from the problem that there are problems.

If someone wants to do bookkeeping and list the people who posted and expressed their concerns, so to show x% wants this or that fixed because; that's good.

Perhaps it's also good to list what is well. Feedback is not only negative, but also positive.

[Husar]

Hello,

There are no problems with voicing critics. Apart from the problem that there are problems.

If someone wants to do bookkeeping and list the people who posted and expressed their concerns, so to show x% wants this or that fixed because; that's good.

Perhaps it's also good to list what is well. Feedback is not only negative, but also positive.

Words of wisdom.

Some things are annoying because we allow them to annoy us.

[sapi]

One more thing, regarding moderation. IMHO we're guests here. We should behave like it. If you're uncomfortable with your host's requests there are plenty of other places to be a guest where you can do and say anything you want. Picking a fight with a moderator is a lot like charging the Mongol Horde with an exhausted unit of peasants.

Except this Mongol Horde doesn't fight back

As always, if anyone has any issues with the moderation here, they can raise it with any of the staff - in public or in private - and it will be looked at. I'll also extend that offer to doing the same thing at TWC, should you also frequent there; neither of the major fansites are in the habit of suppressing sentiment that is somewhat anti-CA, solely for that reason.

The only things we enforce are the rules, and as long as everyone here keeps up the civility and maturity that is such a hallmark of this forum, there's next to no chance of this thread being closed (barring the banhammer needing some exercise, of course )

[TinCow]

The other major issue that is key is that petitions and organized movements by gamers tend to be suppressed heavily. I'm not the least bit surprised that this happens at the .com, those are official forums and nothing can be said or done there that casts too much of a negative light on anything related to CA or the publishers. What does get annoying, as econ so pointed out, is when the modship at the Org and Twcenter gets too heavy handed towards legitimate forms of criticism, and efforts by the gamers with a genuine concern and good intentions that tend to get trashed by the fanboys, trolls, and paid shills. When the overall "mood" at the two major fan sites tends to take a dive, I'd think that'd be a telling message that CA and Sega would do well to heed. Further, while Puzz is right about CA possibly taking action against the Org and TWcenter, I think that would be a final "nail in the coffin" so to speak that would truly drive a very, very large chunk of their existing and possible future customer base away. A mod that I respect here once used the phrase in another thread that "CA bashing is a cancer that is eating away at the Org", to this I can only respond that I politely disagree. First I don't feel that what's occuring here is bashing at all, by and large the comments in this thread and others are well stated, delivered, and supported. Second, I think that the figurative "cancer", which I equate to the general dissatisfaction, is a symptom, not a cause.

I would like to point out that this thread is now over 150 posts, almost all of which are critical of CA. Of these, only 3 posts have been removed for being out-of-line and all 3 of them were by one person. His first post advocated software piracy and his other two made personal attacks on another poster. I think, all considered, that we have been extremely fair and impartial in the Citadel for a long time now. We mainly crack down when people start flinging insults and being inconsiderate to others. Surely that is not such a bad thing.

[Whacker]

I would like to point out that this thread is now over 150 posts, almost all of which are critical of CA. Of these, only 3 posts have been removed for being out-of-line and all 3 of them were by one person. His first post advocated software piracy and his other two made personal attacks on another poster. I think, all considered, that we have been extremely fair and impartial in the Citadel for a long time now. We mainly crack down when people start flinging insults and being inconsiderate to others. Surely that is not such a bad thing.

Whoops, perhaps I should expand some on my statements.

What I should have said was when I meant suppressed, I meant mainly by CA, for the reasons that Puzz and I stated. CA is pretty ruthless at the .com forums, which is why I have always avoided them and others seem to as well. Even here at the Org and Twcenter, as evidenced by several CA rep's posts, they've tended to (in my view) attempt to "suppress" significant issues that have gained momentum in the forums. The save/reload bug for RTW and the deplorable responses by CA is the poster child for this in my view.

As for the Org and Twcenter modship supressing things, I would tend to lean towards agreeing with you about generally being fair in relation to threads and issues. However, I stand by my previous statements, there have been more than a few threads that would have been excellent that were summarily closed when they should have been left open. Again as I stated in my response to Noir, it hasn't been excessive in my view, but it's happened enough that I and others have noticed.

Also I'll throw this out here just for discussion's sake. While I completely reject Lusted's "we listen to threads but not petitions" response, if one were to accept his statements as gospel, then closing even a few threads is essentially cutting off a not-insignificant chunk of our communications with CA and trying to get the message across. Of course I don't really agree with this form of logic, but again based on what's been said it's worth considering.

[Odin]

Also I'll throw this out here just for discussion's sake. While I completely reject Lusted's "we listen to threads but not petitions" response, if one were to accept his statements as gospel, then closing even a few threads is essentially cutting off a not-insignificant chunk of our communications with CA and trying to get the message across. Of course I don't really agree with this form of logic, but again based on what's been said it's worth considering.

For the readership of the thread let me preface this by saying Whacker and I share a mutual respect for one anothers approach and tact to posting. As Bob Dylan once said "we always did feel the same, we just saw it from a different point of view"

@Whacker I've spent plenty of time here at the org as a poster, and time at TW center as a casual observer. While my opinion of moderation at both sites has declined a lot recently, to be fair I find it hard to find an awful lot of fault with modderation of threads here at the org. TWcenter is a different animal, but at the org, tin cow is right they allow a pretty consistant soapbox.

As far as Lusted's comments if you were to step back and look at it from his point of view he really has no win position. We can all speculate as to the decision making process at CA/publisher,and business practices but in all honesty I find that his commentary and participation to be a refreshing engagement to the populace as opposed to a blatant retreat.

What I find lacking in your well thought out posts is the fact that you made the choice to purchase MTW2. You know how the pc gaming industry works, and you also know that games, expansions and even patches are never 100%. That is the current business model, and you are supporting it (I did see your pick of the discs for the tw games you posted, I think that was you).

You again make fair arguments supported by a fair degree of logic, but my friend I dont see any ownership taken by gamers. A lot of us here have been around the bloc on many games, this is hardly a new circumstance and expecting CA to change a business model (which they may or may not be contractually obligated to enforce) negates your power as the end user, and devalues your critiques of thier practices.

[Whacker]

For the readership of the thread let me preface this by saying Whacker and I share a mutual respect for one anothers approach and tact to posting. As Bob Dylan once said "we always did feel the same, we just saw it from a different point of view"

Who is this Odin jerk that keeps quoting me!??!?! (/sarcasm, just in case others don't get it)

@Whacker I've spent plenty of time here at the org as a poster, and time at TW center as a casual observer. While my opinion of moderation at both sites has declined a lot recently, to be fair I find it hard to find an awful lot of fault with modderation of threads here at the org. TWcenter is a different animal, but at the org, tin cow is right they allow a pretty consistant soapbox.

Indeed my friend, you are probably right, it's just that most of what I was basing my statements off of was the first 6 or so months of the Citadel's existence, I haven't really been reading this subforum regularly for a good while now since I gave up on M2TW. I can't really remember what the old MTW and RTW subforums were like in terms of this issue, much less STW, so the Citadel is really all I can honestly comment on in good conscious. It's not that I'm trying to slam or take jabs at the mods, my point is that I think this is a valid concern that should be taken into account. I guess what I'm trying to politely say is that things can be viewed differently through other's eyes, as you've well said earlier.

As far as Lusted's comments if you were to step back and look at it from his point of view he really has no win position. We can all speculate as to the decision making process at CA/publisher,and business practices but in all honesty I find that his commentary and participation to be a refreshing engagement to the populace as opposed to a blatant retreat.

Same here as well, it's a Good Thing© and even almost a necessity that we have CA participation here. One also has to offer at least a begruding respect for folks who stick it out in the face of adversity. Of course we as a whole could also do better to ensure that our opinions, good and bad, are well and politely stated/supported to make their lives easier.

The one area that I do somewhat disagree with you in is Lusted/CA's position. The logic and reasoning that has been presented in the past as to why petitions are "ignored" was garbage, to put it bluntly. While I do appreciate Lusted's direct response to the question I posed, it was somewhat aggravating to see the response regarding threads as opposed to petitions; the very same concerns (which we debunked) apply to threads as they do petitions organized here. (I'm also trying to avoid focusing on any individual CA employee) Thus you can start to see some of the frustration that at least I personally, and I imagine others as well, are having in working with CA on this. Of course they could just haul off and ignore us, but I don't think that they are, that's not a good business choice.

What I find lacking in your well thought out posts is the fact that you made the choice to purchase MTW2. You know how the pc gaming industry works, and you also know that games, expansions and even patches are never 100%. That is the current business model, and you are supporting it (I did see your pick of the discs for the tw games you posted, I think that was you).

You again make fair arguments supported by a fair degree of logic, but my friend I dont see any ownership taken by gamers. A lot of us here have been around the bloc on many games, this is hardly a new circumstance and expecting CA to change a business model (which they may or may not be contractually obligated to enforce) negates your power as the end user, and devalues your critiques of thier practices.

Ahhhh.... now you see through my hypocrisy. You are absolutely correct, I did buy M2TW, not too long after it was out either. Call it blind hope, call it a last stand, call it desperate late-night drunk call, call it whatever you will. I wanted so hard for it to be all that MTW and RTW both were with the best of both, and I had to see it for myself (the demo was worthless). As I'm sure others would laugh and point out, the track record was definitely against me. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me three times, what the was I thinking? This was/is my last CA product purchase, until such time that the TW games get back to their roots and stop catering to the largest common denominator. One won't see Kingdoms (or at this stage Empires) in my game collection until these changes are affected.

Lastly, yet again you are absolutely right, we as the gamers and supporters must take ownership and responsibility for our actions. It's just a really hard lesson to learn for some of us who've been with the TW games for so long, and want our old games back.

[Ramses II CP]

Regarding petitions, I certainly agree that a well run petition can often garner results, the trouble is finding one that is well run. The only ones I can recall involved hosting a webspace for people to reproduce emails that they sent on to the company in question. This has the doubled effect of bringing new people to the party with well reasoned, intelligent examples and also proving, within the limitations of the medium, that either a few very, very dedicated people were writing a lot of emails from different addresses, or there were a lot of complaints. It's great for PR too, as you can pick and choose the best material to put up front and/or sent out to news sites.

My basic point is that, from the corporate perspective, you have to figure that any raw list of names is probably at least 50% BS. I mean, why not make up names? Email addresses are free, website accounts are free, etc. One truly dedicated person could, in theory, account for dozens of new names every day.

A forum, by it's very nature, is more of a community. We have some knowledge of each other, and it would be very difficult to fake being a dozen different people on a forum. If a good number of people take the time to debate a game's flaws, and whether or not it's smart to continue buying from a particular developer, you can be reasonably sure that number of people actually exists and are dissatisfied with the product. If those people go on to send clear headed emails with their complaints, well, your average corporate lackey at least has something to show his boss, right?

One more thing, regarding moderation. IMHO we're guests here. We should behave like it. If you're uncomfortable with your host's requests there are plenty of other places to be a guest where you can do and say anything you want. Picking a fight with a moderator is a lot like charging the Mongol Horde with an exhausted unit of peasants.

[SpencerH]

Two short points:

A lot of us here have been around the bloc on many games, this is hardly a new circumstance and expecting CA to change a business model (which they may or may not be contractually obligated to enforce) negates your power as the end user, and devalues your critiques of thier practices.

Despite my reservations when the demo came out, I expected that SEGA's ownership would have an effect on the final product, so I purchased M2TW. I expect that others felt the same way. OTOH, I'll look at Empires but unless I see a complete reversal of gameplay I wont buy it since I definitely didnt get my moneys worth from M2TW (which I could only stand for 50 turns or so).

As for the mods here, they've been pretty impartial most of the time but during the backlash against RTW they were overly protective of their relationship with CA. CA totally overreacted to the attempts to organize and voice our complaints and they incited the worst excesses. IIRC, CA were particularly incensed by the movement to publish our opinions at Amazon. IMO, the reason this thread exists, and may be considered helpful, is because CA's attitude/reaction to criticism has changed. Perhaps they're more used to it now.