Zero Hitpoints?

[Landwalker]

So I started up a campaign as Casse (man, talk about a tough, slow start). I was poking around their units, and noticed that the in-game unit card lists that the Casse chariots have "Hit Points: 0".

Can somebody explain this? I noticed in the one battle I've fought so far that charioteers drop like flies, but I don't know if this is because they're so cumbersome and awkward to maneuver, or because if they get so much as nicked, they go down.

Cheers.

[bovi]

Hmm... Their health has been changed from 1,1 (man, mount) to 2,0. Possibly this makes it display 0. I don't know what effect it has.

[Landwalker]

What does having (man, mount) health of (2,0) mean in-game, then? I assume it means that the rider has two hitpoints, and the horses have zero, but... what does that means?

Cheers.

[Landwalker]

As something of a follow-up question, how in the name of God are you supposed to use chariots? I have something like seven family members right now, but I don't have any idea whatto do with them--the slow stream of javelins doesn't seem to have a significant impact on anything, and even a charge into the flank (let alone the front) tends to be immediately disastrous.

Cheers.

[TWFanatic]

LOL no wonder they suck! The mount is the hitpoint that actually matters! You must make it at least 2 for the chariot to be worth anything.

[The Celtic Viking]

As something of a follow-up question, how in the name of God are you supposed to use chariots? I have something like seven family members right now, but I don't have any idea whatto do with them--the slow stream of javelins doesn't seem to have a significant impact on anything, and even a charge into the flank (let alone the front) tends to be immediately disastrous.

Cheers.

Two tips:

a) Get around to the enemy's back, and throw javelins from there. You'll not only bring a very slow rain of death, but you'll cause fear both by threatening a charge to their rear and by having the scares_foot trait. Can make the enemy rout much faster.

b) Charge through enemy heavy infantry. They will get disorganized, and in through the breaches you send your own infantry to pluck them apart. Let the chariots then proceed with tip a.

Chariots are cool, but sadly not that impressive performance-wise - unless they've been seriously beefed up from 0.8, which I doubt. Edit: after reading this thread more carefully, I notice the 0 mount hp, which worries me that I might just be correct. Seeing that I don't think I would recommend option b... if one of your mounts dies, the whole chariot will die. It may just become a very cost-ineffective kamikaze-attack.

[Landwalker]

b) Charge through enemy heavy infantry. They will get disorganized, and in through the breaches you send your own infantry to pluck them apart. Let the chariots then proceed with tip a.

Do you do this by simply double-clicking behind the enemy, or by charging, then running through? It doesn't seem like simply running has the same effect as charging, and once the chariots hit on a charge they seem to get awfully bogged down. Nevertheless, I'll be sure to give it a shot in my next battle.

Cheers.

[blacksnail]

It looks like we have some balancing issues with those units. I'll ask the stat guys.

[The Celtic Viking]

Do you do this by simply double-clicking behind the enemy, or by charging, then running through? It doesn't seem like simply running has the same effect as charging, and once the chariots hit on a charge they seem to get awfully bogged down. Nevertheless, I'll be sure to give it a shot in my next battle.

Cheers.

Take a look at what I edited in. I didn't see that the mount now has 0 hp, and because of that I really have no idea how smart that could be. You could try it, but I'd recommend you then do it with your least liked general, or a trained chariot if you can get that (and don't want a general dead ).

I cannot say if it works at all anymore - tip b was based upon 0.8, where it worked, and I wasn't aware of this hp change. I should read more carefully, and I hope I didn't cost you your faction leader by my ignorance.

[Sakkura]

It looks like we have some balancing issues with those units. I'll ask the stat guys.

I wouldn't mind if chariots have been crappified. I always got so annoyed by the Egyptian chariot tank armies of vanilla RTW.

[bovi]

I wouldn't mind if chariots have been crappified. I always got so annoyed by the Egyptian chariot tank armies of vanilla RTW.

Those were brittle as hell, couldn't do anything.

[Sakkura]

Those were brittle as hell, couldn't do anything.

They were ubar when I played Egypt, at least that's how I remember it. Along with those "cataphract archers" it made Egypt pretty easy as I recall. And totally ahistorical.

[Hooahguy]

And totally ahistorical.

....along with other things

[Watchman]

I'm just wondering if setting the chariots' secondady HP and defense stats to zero didn't have the effect of making the engine treat them as cavalry, ie. only the primary stats (the crew's) matter...

[Amenophis]

Celtic Lesser Kings are the only reasonable choice to lead Casse armies at the moment. Unwieldy chariots plus no hitpoints makes for an incredible casualty rate for family members.

BTW, Casse Lesser Kings show up as Neitos on the unit cards, but are Calawre on the battlemap.

[TWFanatic]

Those were brittle as hell, couldn't do anything.

Having played vanilla RTW online for about two years now, I can safely say that they are very strong against cavalry and light infantry. They can do well against any infantry when flanking though.

They're WAY stronger than EB chariots though, that's for sure.

[bovi]

Am I the only one who had egyptian chariots with 1 defense in vanilla, from skill? They died like... something else that dies really quickly .

[Landwalker]

Am I the only one who had egyptian chariots with 1 defense in vanilla, from skill? They died like... something else that dies really quickly .

They died like Casse royal family chariots?

Cheers.

[Megalos]

They died like... something else that dies really quickly .

Sorry to interupt the thread, but that literally made me laugh out loud!

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think the reason why Casse Lesser Kings show up as Calawre is some model-sharing issue: the Casse have a unit & skin on the same model as the Neitos hence they always end up looking like the Calawre. That doesn't go for their UI so the UI is still correct. Spendios probably knows more about this though.

[Juvenal]

I played Casse in 0.80 and was shocked to see how quickly chariots died.

I am playing them again now, and something has definitely changed. They seem better able to stand-off and chuck their javelins. I even managed a couple of successful charges into the rear of engaged units.

Have they lost their impetuous trait? I seem to recall that they used to skirmish for a while, then decide to commit suicide against some nearby spear warband - which forced me to keep them well to the rear of my own army.

[Moros]

I'll look into the chariots. Note however, they aren' supposed to be tanks. They don't use armour to reach their goals but javelins and the shock experience and fear instead.

[Landwalker]

I'll look into the chariots. Note however, they aren' supposed to be tanks. They don't use armour to reach their goals but javelins and the shock experience and fear instead.

I appreciate it. I do understand that chariots aren't supposed to be able to simply run rampant across the battlefield, but it seems like they should be able to stand up a bit longer than they do. After all, missile cavalry uses javelins (and occasionally shock and fear of being charged in the flank) as well, and even they hold up longer.

Cheers.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Please do not confuse Celtic chariots with Seleucid and Pontic ones. Celtic chariots were use for transport and skirmishing. Seleucid and Pontic ones were used for shock. Ones were fragile and light, the others strong and heavy. Totally different roles.

[Watchman]

I've been wondering... given that IRL the Celtic chariot was really more of a "battle taxi" for a senior warrior, and the crews wear about Bataroas-level war gear, wouldn't it more or less work to simply give the unit secondary defense stats more or less identical to the primaries, to represent the fighting crewman fending off enemies ? Granted that doesn't really account for the way the horses are sorta exposed save for there not being a shield value in the secondary line, but since you kinda need to abstract anyway...

[Moros]

Just noticed the question, and as I'm not sure if it was awnsered here it is:

0 HP = 1 HP. So that isn't a real error as it doesn't matter anyways.

[Moros]

I've been wondering... given that IRL the Celtic chariot was really more of a "battle taxi" for a senior warrior, and the crews wear about Bataroas-level war gear, wouldn't it more or less work to simply give the unit secondary defense stats more or less identical to the primaries, to represent the fighting crewman fending off enemies ? Granted that doesn't really account for the way the horses are sorta exposed save for there not being a shield value in the secondary line, but since you kinda need to abstract anyway...

The celtic chariot indeed was used mostly as a taxi. However I think this wouldmake things a bit to abstract. And we'd getting multiple threads of fans stating that chariots are overpowered, every week.

[Watchman]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...?

A fair point certainly. Still, that approach would sort of make sense to me... Ah well, modding time I guess.

[Count Belisarius]

Do you do this by simply double-clicking behind the enemy, or by charging, then running through? It doesn't seem like simply running has the same effect as charging, and once the chariots hit on a charge they seem to get awfully bogged down.

You got it. Double-clicking behind the enemy gets you nowhere, because there's a huge difference (statistically speaking) between "running" and "charging." "Charge" to contact, then "run" - through, back, away, to the side, or whatever. If you're going through the enemy formation, the best way to go about it is to "charge" a unit *behind* your actual target (if possible), then go from there.

With the relative weakness of Casse chariots (markedly weaker than Eastern chariots, even in 0.81), I wouldn't just pile into an enemy formation, either. Instead, try hitting from a shallower angle. The turn radius on chariots is so bad (and they behave so erratically), that you can't extract them before taking huge casualties.

[Bootsiuv]

Vanilla RTW seemed to overpower chariots in autoresolve....that's probably why you remember them as being tanks.

Chariots weren't often used to charge into the lines, skythed chariots notwithstanding.

I'm fairly certain there most common role was to ferry fresh troops from the camp, and take the wounded out. They were rarely involved in actual melee.

That bein said, I do think it should be put back to 1,1. The chariots were acceptable in .8x.

I'm thinking of making my own mini-mod which will give Casse generals infantry and make the chariots an elite. I just have to figure out how to do that exactly, and find a suitable infantry unit....

Are custom units available for dl anywhere around here? I remember Civ III had a section in their forums with hundreds of units you could dl for your own mod....that's how I was able to make my own dragonlance mod.

The only reason I ask is because I haven't seen any around, although I admit I haven't looked in any great detail.