Sweboz feedback

[HFox]

(H/M)

Having played this faction extensively in 0.8 I have to say this update to 1x and the subtle changes to the game mechanics has made things enthralling. Currently suffering from a lack of sleep :).

I am having to conduct campaigns against rebel provinces, and they are no longer the walk over they were before. They are also counter invading!

The Sweboz roster presents its own issues in terms of the unit types you have to use.....but damn its fun to play with. The mercenaries available are also great and all the unit roster seems to 'fit'. In terms of battles, the balance seems to have been improved greatly, with my units holding their own in formation but being cut to ribbons at time when not. I am no stat monkey but nothing so far seems out of kilter. The traits are also working well.

I have reached 230BC and no CTDS as yet and no reforms have triggered.

My overriding feeling is this update has tied lots of loose ends into the final product and made the whole product more interesting, engaging and harder :).

Question, is there an optimum for the game settings?

Finally, the world history.....who ever put that together many, many thanks, I bet it was a bitch to edit.

[Ariovistus]

I totally agree with that.
I'm at ~225BC now, and with the larger (and stronger) garrisons surrounding the players territory and the Defender of XY - Armies, it is way more challenging to play the Sweboz compared to previous versions. When I marched to the southeast, in order to overwhelm the Boii, I faced a full stack, filled with better units than those I had, defeated it, lay siege on the city, just to be attacked by another full stack, forcing me to pull back. Needless to say those enemy units had silver and/or golden chevrons... Those battles are as intense and thrilling as rarely before. Needless to say that good tactics are indespensable.
And I like the new unit roster as well. I am really looking forward to the Reforms!

[Uranos]

Great to hear that HFox

Maybe you could post a pic of your empire?

Q: Which is the recommend difficult setting for Europa Barbarorum?
A: Europa Barbarorum is best played on Very Hard / Medium. The AI is aggressive (in particular the slave faction) but don’t get stat bonuses on the battlefield. If you want a real challenge try VH/VH but be aware enemy units on the battlefield are getting massive bonuses (afaik: +7 attack, +7 defence, and a huge morale boost), you could have your fullstack army is hacked to pieces by 5 units levies...

Recently we are considering about changing the recommended difficulty for the campaign map to hard - so the AI isn't that stubborn and more willing to diplomatic negotiations.

[dezzerx]

The Sweboz are by far my favourite faction. And I love all changes that have been made.

[Eminos]

Thanks a lot for the response regarding the new defense for the Boii (and Lugians). It might suggest that we didn't overdo it. I was a little bit worried that it might be too tough. The main emphasis of the whole idea, (Kull's brilliant idea), was primarily to stop the AI-controlled factions in the region from unhistorical expansion, and these Übergenerals with their Über-armies was what it took to achieve that. I now just wish that a majority of the Sweboz players agrees with you. Time will tell, but I can say that your answers made my day

Edit: A third positive answer, while I was writing this, have to get faster ;-)

[blitzkrieg80]

me too thanks guys, it was a tremendous amount of work

what do you guys think of the Argaz (Anti-Noble) trait? My Sweboz game has a lot of Family members getting that, so maybe it's just me?

I think the Jugunthiz/Skirmishers are overpowered, because they cost more than the veteran spearmen, when they should be cheaper I dunno how I will resolve this- they do have one of the best formation densities though- and they're skirmishers

PS- I just love Chatti clubmen... so cool to see a couple take down Solduros /Neitos when they're supposed to be the best troops Panzerjaeger!

[SaFe]

Congratulations Blitz to your work, although i can't find the topic regarding the discussed long flowing hair as i wanted to post something there.

I really miss the mentioned wolf and bear warriors (for the wolf warriors i strongly suggest swords b.t.w. for religious aspects - the bear warriors would do fine with clubs but i think you'll come up with something fine), but Urnamma said we could hope for a inclusion soon.

For your problem with the "Youths". The skirmishers should perhaps be naked - what do you think? As a sign of courage and the will to prove themselves it was not a celtic custom only to go naked into battle - and it would help with the "overpowered" problem.

One last and very minor thing:
Could you please change the portraits of the starting germanic faction members and rebels to something less celtic like (especially the typic moustaches and helmets)

Take care.

[dezzerx]

I think the Jugunthiz/Skirmishers are overpowered, because they cost more than the veteran spearmen, when they should be cheaper I dunno how I will resolve this- they do have one of the best formation densities though- and they're skirmishers

I have to admit I never use them in skirmish role. Mostly as light infantry or to plug gaps or sometimes just stand in the shieldwall. When I tried to use them in skirmish role they always get pummeled by the enemy skirmishers which always seem to have a range advantage. I do love them in a light infantry role tho.

[blitzkrieg80]

SaFe, I am always open to feedback (game-wise and ProtoGermanic), and particularly, I would definitely like to expand the hairstyles, which were not planned much beyond those specific with Suebic knots (where we argued to remove helmets- oh and the Chatti Youth i love the scraggily bastards) so if you have any advice or information to give us, start a new thread or whatever. one problem is logistics and the helmets, should they be braids hanging on the sides or what?

Good points on the portraits, I am not sure how those work but I will note it and take it to the right people... I am not quite sure why some of the portraits have neon red dots on the helms? Am I hallucinating?

there are entirely too few naked Germanics so I like that idea...

Wolfskin unit which i had Blank make already has an axe(chopping wood) and spear(hunting), to symbolize that they have weapons they use while living in the woods... sword is a good idea, but might lead to further argument against it, despite evidence on trajan's wall... it's a MERC only unit (since they choose to live outside society's bounds) which should be very rare throughout the game and only available in Sweboz forestland- need help defining that though, so far i think Swebolandam and that's it... I plan to name it Wargoz after the term that means wolf and outcast, since they choose to live separate from society, and it's actually the term for werewolf in ON as you probably know, which cannot be a coincidence with the widespread cognates of this alternate term for wolf... it could be said I am doing plain language too much for the Germanics, such as the Slaganz, Ridanz, Wargoz, but i tend to think it would be more natural than totally artificial stuff like I HAD to do for building names... always open to feedback on these things.

The Bearskin unit hasn't been done yet, and is planned on the 2-handed clubman that Urnamma is giving us an extra model slot for, because he wants a 2-handed clubman so much- so cool! the wolfskin used the old merjoz unit slot, fyi


Dezzerx, didn't you mention some problems with the battlemap and German units? they're running all over the place?

[dezzerx]

Ah yes, it only occurs when I siege an enemy town without a wall. If they then sally forth I can't move my men without them spreading all over the place.

I have not had problems in other battles so far.

[Foot]

You cannot set the starting portraits for family members.

Foot

[SaFe]

SaFe, I am always open to feedback (game-wise and ProtoGermanic), and particularly, I would definitely like to expand the hairstyles, which were not planned much beyond those specific with Suebic knots (where we argued to remove helmets- oh and the Chatti Youth i love the scraggily bastards) so if you have any advice or information to give us, start a new thread or whatever. one problem is logistics and the helmets, should they be braids hanging on the sides or what?

Good points on the portraits, I am not sure how those work but I will note it and take it to the right people... I am not quite sure why some of the portraits have neon red dots on the helms? Am I hallucinating?

there are entirely too few naked Germanics so I like that idea...

Wolfskin unit which i had Blank make already has an axe(chopping wood) and spear(hunting), to symbolize that they have weapons they use while living in the woods... sword is a good idea, but might lead to further argument against it, despite evidence on trajan's wall... it's a MERC only unit (since they choose to live outside society's bounds) which should be very rare throughout the game and only available in Sweboz forestland- need help defining that though, so far i think Swebolandam and that's it... I plan to name it Wargoz after the term that means wolf and outcast, since they choose to live separate from society, and it's actually the term for werewolf in ON as you probably know, which cannot be a coincidence with the widespread cognates of this alternate term for wolf... it could be said I am doing plain language too much for the Germanics, such as the Slaganz, Ridanz, Wargoz, but i tend to think it would be more natural than totally artificial stuff like I HAD to do for building names... always open to feedback on these things.

The Bearskin unit hasn't been done yet, and is planned on the 2-handed clubman that Urnamma is giving us an extra model slot for, because he wants a 2-handed clubman so much- so cool! the wolfskin used the old merjoz unit slot

I admit the chatti hairstyle looks fantastic.

Well, especially for the "noble units" i would have preferred a special hairstyle and not the helmet.
Germanics were so eager and we could even say vain of their hairstyle that they want to show it regularly.
If you remember the "old" Gaizaharjoz unit with the long spear wielded two handed( i still have the .cas i think) the hair and beardstyle would fit for such a unit perfectly. Definatley no braids i think - this was rather celtic hairstyle.
Especially Speidel mention the custom with long flowing hair - i will give you the references as soon as i find the book.

About the Wargoz, i like the plain and simple name and the meaning of it. As suggestion you could include the word walþuz somehow with the meaning "forest wilderness" they lived in.

The MERC unit is wonderful idea with the background of the "out of community" living warriors, BUT i really suggest the sword instead of the axe. The spear for the reference for hunting aspect is very nice.(wild hunt for example)
Those warriors where no woodcutters or simple woodsmen, so there should definately be no big discussion about sword instead of the axe.
You have at least Trajan's column as reference and also the religious aspect of the "mythical" sword was strong in those wolf-warriors.
I really hope you prevail in this discussion: No axe please - this would make this unit rather a woodmen unit and not the unit it should be - a very special kind of mythical wild men that defintalely used swords and not just for ritual aspects.

The sword problem for germanics - you would go around this by using it purely as a merc unit. (they will be not too numerous on the battlefields of Europe while recruitableonly in Swebolandam) and this is a good choice and should solve the old germanic-swords problem.


The bearskin unit sounds promising
Glad you like the idea about the naked youths.
One unit the germanics roster really needs iin my opinion are the famous horse stabbers. It seems it is not possible to inlcude the "double" unit light cavalry+fast warriors on foot modelwise, but a kind of the well known germanic anti-cavalry unit, almost like the Youths but without the skirmish ability is needed.
What do you think?

Thank you for your response.

[Watchman]

As for that last part, I understand any light infantry mixing into a horse fight tended to have a rather major effect on the outcome; even crappy Medieval peasant levies, in the rare occasion they were at hand and willing to participate in a cavalry battle, achieved that.

That said, wouldn't the "horse-runner" unit likely end up looking rather like those Celtic shortswordmen ? Very lightly equipped for speed and agility, short swords are quite good enough for gutting horses in a swirling melee, small bucklers would be an easily transported and convenient form of useful extra defense, and a couple of javelins never hurt anyone's combat efficiency... Perhaps with a slight bonus fighting cavalry (+1 or so) to represent the specialised training ?

[blitzkrieg80]

there was a Horse-Runners unit and it was implemented and all that and later scrapped due to performance, AFAIK... before my time, but supposedly it just didn't work, they couldn't be sped up, so the Youth would be the best equivicant of that.

[SaFe]

Ah, sad that the horse runners/stabbers could not be implemented in a satisfying way, but perhaps we could pick up watchman's idea...

Blitz, i would suggest to make the youths naked and perhaps get rid of the helmet for the bodyguards or the noble swordsmen. Some kind of spectacular hairstyle and beard like the old mentioned Gaizaharjoz hairstyle would really fit.

I'm eager to see the Wolf-Warriors and hopefully the choice to give them the woodcutters weapon will get the axe O.k. i'm no comedian so i will stop making bad jokes, but i hope the Wargoz will be something special.

As i currently have no time to test the game, have you increased the importance of the Thengaz?

I said it already but i like to repeat myself : I'm very grateful you have taken over the reins for the germanic faction

One question, have you read Speidels book about the germanics?
I think he clearly shows the facts of the germanic wolf and bear warriors.

[Watchman]

I can't vouch for others, but I'd point out I at least have a policy of seeing to it no soldier who traipses around without a helmet has too good an armour value in my EDU. Just doesn't make sense otherwise. And IIRC the 0.8x Ferulharjoz stats (and some of the 1.0 unit stats), the team is on the same lines - so keep that in mind before suggesting too much "style before substance" for the German heavies...

Mind you, "long free-flowing hair" oughta spill out from under the helmet nicely enough if it comes down to that (assuming they didn't do the clever trick of bunching it up under the helmet into a bonus cushioning layer that is). Have you read some of the descriptions of some Viking grandees ? Some of those guys had to put their beards and hair into some serious braids just to keep it from getting in the way in battle...

[blitzkrieg80]

our latest addition to the Germanic research team, Handsome Viking, has the book and others and done quite a bit of work compiling a huge amount of evidence for the specific purpose of a factual basis for the Wolf-skin... I plan to read Speidel's book, but currently have not, yet will hopefully scrounge some bucks together for an early Jule Tide present It really sounds like my favorite topic, so I am just glad a book out there exists which contains such an interesting collection of information... I get really tired of reading the same generic overview of the Germanic tribes, which tries too hard to not say anything inaccurate and thus says nothing at all <cough cough> "Todd" <cough>

I appreciate the kind words and on a separate note, your own work on the Germanic faction was quite helpful... some of the great stuff in EB is the result of our brilliant coders, like Bozoslivehere who got the ethnicities and noble system integrated

Currently, the Bodyguard and Thegnoz need some stat tweaks, I personally have found their game performance very disappointing, and Swabian, one of our researchers, has discovered some stats like the spear-attack is less/equal to the Dugunthiz, which doesn't really sit right.

Great point by Watchman: the leather helmet currently adds a needed 2 points for armor, but despite that, I personally would rather see elaborate hairstyles, but then no one would have helmets either... some variation based on evidence seems best- too bad there isn't much evidence- Arg!

Also, I agree, practically speaking braids would just about be the only way to go, short of the unspeakable (mullet- sorry!)... and I really don't think anybody should have a mullet, even if the Avars are cool otherwise, no-no!

[SaFe]

Perhaps when adjusting the stats for the bodyguards and the Thegnoz - the famous morale of those sworn warriors could come into play. Well, we all know that there are many times recorded those warriors choose to fight to the death instead of "loosing" their honour and flee.
The romans and other nations like the jewish kindom of Herodes for example doesn't had germanic elite bodyguards for nothing.
Better to loose the 2 AP on the head and give them better stats.
Also some germanic warriors were known for their ability with the throwing spear, so even perhaps this could for those chosen warriors help too.
I suggest to increase their stats and give them those hairstyle we talked about.
Personally i believe those were the most loyal overall (and best with their fighting abilities in germanic society) warriors during the time we could talk about - their record talk for themselves and this is currently not showing in their battlefield as you have noticed also.

About Speidel: Blitz, very, very interesting topics about warfare of the germanics, good stuff on wolf and bear warriors and even the "long hairs" - the elite of the tribe.
Perhaps i could get the interesting things scanned and get it somehow to you, if you want.

Take care.

[blitzkrieg80]

actually i just ordered that book (Speidel), but i do appreciate the offer... i just couldn't wait any longer

you know, Swabian had also discussed this, doing javelines instead of a close-combat spear, similar to the Neitos, and after observing some disappointing performance by the Bodyguard, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea... although it is a sure thing that all Germanic warriors would use the spear first for range, I think the Bodyguard might be more accurately portrayed in effective use of a sword. I don't know about giving any super-high morale for the Bodyguard, because they already perform well in that aspect and the Celtic elite have the same (I wouldn't think they'd be MORE exceptional than other warrior elites with similar honor codes), but I definitely think we can play with the stats.

I have experimented recently and I discovered that a simple 13 defense skill instead of 11 (which is actually what i first begged our stat guy to do and isn't that high compared to other units)- this really seems to make a good difference in peformance... the other thing is the increase of spear attack from 16 to 17 to match other Celtic elites... the mental /morale at 16 does well with these little tweaks, only time will tell if this is what gets implemented, but i'm having fun with it in my game

Side note: I think this thread should be kept alive, if we want to discuss the Sweboz, mostly because it has a brilliant topic short and sweet... the Underpowered thread was great and interesting, but I don't think it's necessarily the case or topic we're discussing even if we end up increasing stats from underpowered states

[SaFe]

Well blitz, considering the germanics were praised during the ancient times as the most loyal warriors of western and middle europe (we talk about the absolute elite here) i think the bodyguards should have a edge over their celtic counterparts, but i think the team will make the right decission.
But i think it shouldn't be forgotten, that the romans hired not celtic or other nation's elite warriors but germanic ones for the personal protection of their leaders, so i think with this honor code, as you call it, they should have higher morale stats. As we can't display the "loyality" in EB it should perhaps be displayed in Morale.

I also suggest to give them the throwing spear as secondary weapon, after all the exceptional warriors of germanic tribes were known for their ability to throw their frame a very long distance...
Good idea here, i though of the Herthoz(as i called them during planning phase) those long months ago in this manner(throwing spear, long range, very high morale, and sword).

If you think there are too many sword units(still hoping you've got rid of the axe idea for the wolf-warriors), scrap the "normal germanic sword unit(not the cherusic one) Sorry, just can't find the name you've given them. Just a idea.

Take care.

[blitzkrieg80]

Well, you're not the only one thinking their morale (the Hearth Troop) should be higher, so it's always a possibility.

The Cherusci sword unit (Druhtiz [Troop] Heru-sk-u [Sword-ish/Cherusci-ish]) is supposed to help the fact that there were so many spearmen that all seemed the same, so making it a spearman again would leave the question back: why bother with spearman a, b, or c? currently the Chauci have better defense, and the Skanza spearman has better charge/tiny bit more morale.

With the exception of someone making a good case for keeping the hand-to-hand spears for the Hearth Troop, it really sounds like a good idea to give them a long-range throwing-spear (barbed possibly), Swabian, one of our researches has some great ideas for re-doing the art of the spear-tips and adding barbed spears: but i do not know how possible that sort of thing is in the RTW engine, and it might be something for EB2. It would be something like a shield-destroyer or even anti-personel / an opposite of the pilum AP.
Anyways, the Celtic Neitos really perform well, so it wouldn't be bad to have the Hearth Troop so, especially because there are so many spearmen in the Germanic Roster, no fear of not having anti-cavalry.

I really do like the idea of swords among the Wolfskins, especially with sword-cults and all: which reminds me, Tiw is vastly underrepresented usually considering that Wodan wasn't the all-father for quite a while, I wonder if there's any way to hit that home better for the players... oh well.
Anyways, I'll keep you interested and interesting fans updated on plans for the future Sweboz :)... hopefully I won't get sacrificed for revealing too much... but if so, I'll just come back wiser of the "secret" (runes)

btw, if you guys come up with anything extra for the temples descriptions, like god's aspects or patronage (as close to the EB timeline as possible), let me know... I feel like i might have missed some good stuff, as usual, Norse mythology is greatly rich, but the whole tales of some of those characters can't fit so well
on a side note- it seems I made a mistake i rearranged the grove to the 1st level temple before shrine, for logic, but the pictures now are funny so grove looks like a rock arrangement / altar of stone (harugaz- i only changed this word because it's borrowed from Celtic karrika: otherwise a very cool word) and the shrine looks like a grove.

[Pharnakes]

With the exception of someone making a good case for keeping the hand-to-hand spears for the Hearth Troop, it really sounds like a good idea to give them a long-range throwing-spear (barbed possibly), Swabian, one of our researches has some great ideas for re-doing the art of the spear-tips and adding barbed spears: but i do not know how possible that sort of thing is in the RTW engine, and it might be something for EB2. It would be something like a shield-destroyer or even anti-personel / an opposite of the pilum AP.

So far as I know there should be no problems what so ever with this, you can have lots (if not unlimited) of different missiles, as a placeholder may I recomend that you use the harpoons that the ciclian pirates threw in vannila?

[blitzkrieg80]

FYI for you guys, this is some of the proposed tweaks we're thinking for the Germanic Bodyguard and Mercenary Thanes:

type germanic infantry general ferulharjoz
dictionary germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz ; Herthaganautoz
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_gastiz, 20, 0, 1.18
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy, general_unit
formation 0.7, 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 12, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 17, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 9, 11, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental 17, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1924, 0, 80, 130, 1924
ownership germans, slave

It's conservative for balance, but it really makes a difference in my own game.

[SaFe]

@blitz

Any news about the wolf unit(w. swords) and the bear unit(w. two-handed club)? I think w. Speidel's book(hopefully you have got it already) you could get some more information about this.
I think you have already decided to make the youths naked. Perhaps you should consider the helmets(the style of hair we have talked about) of the nobles, but i really like to see the wolf unit, hopefully in 1.1.

[konny]

I have now come to play the Sweboz in EB 1.0 for a longer time (now around 225 BC) and I am really impressed: it is even more fun than in EB 0.8!


Some issues on the units, that I came across so far:

The Jugunthiz are no real skirmishers. That was allready mentioned. Adding to this the unit costs; no one would use a 356-unit to screen 308-units. I use them as local units and only raise them in Kimbroz; doing the same Dugunthiz in Sweboland and the Herunautoz in Rügen, I have local units for every tribe.

On the unit costs:
Dugunthiz, Druhtiz Skandzikus and Habukisku and Dugunthiz Hattisku are all local variations of the same unit. Nevertheless their costs do differ to up to nearly 1/3 (308 for the Habukisku to 396 for the Hattisku). Shouldn't they all cost about the same?

The Ridnaz seems to be way to expensive compared to similar cavalry units like the Leuce Epos, may be a price between 500 and 600 would be more reasonable?


On the stats:
Gaizoz, Jugunthiz, Skutjanz, Slaganz, Herusku, Jugunthiz Hattisku and Skaduganganz are all units that do not wear any kind of protection, but their armour value is ranging from 0 to 2. I think 2 should be reserved for units that are proper clothed, while those naked or half naked units should have 0 or 1 (I would perefer 1).



------------------------------------------------

Another thing that is only in-direct related to the Sweboz are the Naked Fanatics. I know they are a Holy Cow to the EB world, but I had to reduce their hit points from 2 to 1. Their stats are fine when the AI has one or two of them per army, but in my campaign the Arverni and Aedui had made them their infantry of line, with usualy 6 or 7 per stack. Gaeroas and Bataroas are the exception. Since the Sweboz don't have any units with AP-missle quality, like pila or slingers, winning battles under fair odds becomes a more and more impossibility.

[Redmeth]

That problem with the Gaesatae is pretty annoying thankfully M2TW will provide us with a much better way of limiting them so they will be the rare elites they should.

[theorykid]

I'm enjoying my Sweboz campaign as well, although note that the reforms are bugged, and will not trigger.

The fix by Blitzkrieg80 is located:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93820

[the_handsome_viking]

@blitz

Any news about the wolf unit(w. swords) and the bear unit(w. two-handed club)? I think w. Speidel's book(hopefully you have got it already) you could get some more information about this.
I think you have already decided to make the youths naked. Perhaps you should consider the helmets(the style of hair we have talked about) of the nobles, but i really like to see the wolf unit, hopefully in 1.1.

I've read the book, some people are a bit worried about the wolf unit, however those people are the same people that haven't read any of the evidence for their existance.

The club types of the club warriors need to represent more diversity in types, for example, there were clubs that had iron wrapped around them with little spikes on them, also some fire hardened clubs are well represented on Trajan's column. The bone clubs that seem to be really spread out in Sweboz now really need to be fixed I think, I've not seen much or any evidence for it, just that someone said that someone they know found something similar to that or something.

To be perfectly honest, I'm still not very happy with the Sweboz and I think there is a lot of work to be done.

[blitzkrieg80]

Just to be clear, I had nothing to do with the bone spike inserts or leather helms... not my baby / research, so I cannot add any helpful info...

[HFox]

Just to be clear, I had nothing to do with the bone spike inserts or leather helms... not my baby / research, so I cannot add any helpful info...

I'm confused....is this some sort of party you went to recently