some units too hard to kill?

[ZinedineZidane]

like freaking skirmishers with no armour, i'll send a unit of armoured cataphracts and they have to stab them like 10 times just to kill 1 guy, i mean i understand that units need more morale and stuff so u can make tactical decisions, but some units are freaking too hard to kill, i would expect u only need 1-3 whacks at an unarmoured guy to kill it =/

[JeffBag]

Each person is a representation of about ten I think, so theres your ten stabs to kill.

[iceman7291]

Each person is a representation of about ten I think, so theres your ten stabs to kill.

Really?! I didnt know they put a ratio system in this game. Thats cool, and would explain why when my Eqvites Romani charge skirmishers I lose almost a third of my cav to destroy their whole unit.

[different_13]

Another reason might be that you don't want equites staying in combat. In fact, the same goes for most cavalry - you charge, do some damage, pull back and charge again (2 charges per minute are the minimum, imo).

I tend to pair cavalry units - one charges, the other advances slowly, the first retreats, the second charges while the first reforms, etc..

I also prefer to use cavalry in deep formations rather than wide formations, charges seem more effective that way (and it makes them easier to manoevre, in my experience).

Oh, and they better not be Thracian skirmishers.. scythe-blades and horses don't mix!

[blacksnail]

like freaking skirmishers with no armour, i'll send a unit of armoured cataphracts and they have to stab them like 10 times just to kill 1 guy, i mean i understand that units need more morale and stuff so u can make tactical decisions, but some units are freaking too hard to kill, i would expect u only need 1-3 whacks at an unarmoured guy to kill it =/

What is your campaign and battle difficulty?

[EdwardL]

Each person is a representation of about ten I think, so theres your ten stabs to kill.

That doesnt make a lick of sense, as that would then be suggesting that the cataphracts would be ten times their displayed number and therefore wouldnt be one guy doing "ten stabs", but rather ten X the displayed single soldiers doing X amount of stabs, thereby nullifying the notion that it's 1 cataphract having to kill 10 soldiers that are not represented on the battlefield.

Aside from that, there has been no official mention of that being what EB is aiming for in terms of battle mechanics.

[Intranetusa]

^ I had this problem in EB .81 too. I would have like 5 (on large ~ 400-500 troops) units of princpes trying to kill a single enemy who was left during the siege...usually it'd take like half a minute. If that single enemy was the general...it takes me like 5 minutes just to kill him

[konny]

like freaking skirmishers with no armour, i'll send a unit of armoured cataphracts and they have to stab them like 10 times just to kill 1 guy

I suppose not all those stabs were hits? That's what the units have a defense value for: they evade hits. Yesterday I had a battle in which Equites Consulares attacked Velites. Not that the Consulares suffered serious casulties but they had quite some problem with killing those guys. I watched three horsemen stabbing and striking at one Velite without placing a single hit. After some time, one of the three seemed to become bored and rode away, while the skirmisher was finally killed by a fourth rider that passed by and pierced him.

[NeoSpartan]

ok 1st thing is 1st...

What battle difficutly were u playing in???

2nd: Equites are not really good cavarly. Thier charge is OKish and the melee is not that great.

3rd: WHAT skermisher were u fighitng???

4th: Velites have spears, so they will give cavarly a hard time.

5th Did u Charge them????

[The_Mark]

Äck, could you please mind your grammar.

[NeoSpartan]

Äck, could you please mind your grammar.

sorry I am in between classes and don't have too much time to 2x check

[ZinedineZidane]

i always play on medium difficulty, i mean i dont lose a lot of cataphracts maybe only 5 against 240 hellenic skirmishers, the ones with the hats and no armour, the problem is it takes freaking too long to kill them and yes i did charge, and by the time they're done with my cataphracts went from fresh to EXHAUSTED =(

[mcantu]

i always play on medium difficulty, i mean i dont lose a lot of cataphracts maybe only 5 against 240 hellenic skirmishers, the ones with the hats and no armour, the problem is it takes freaking too long to kill them and yes i did charge, and by the time they're done with my cataphracts went from fresh to EXHAUSTED =(

Youre complaining about losing 5 to 240? wtf...

[ZinedineZidane]

im not complaining about any losses i take against them, the fact is they're unarmoured and im just wondering why it takes so long to kill them

[Watchman]

When attacking loose-order low-quality infantry with heavy cavalry I've often found it useful to order the horsemen move through the enemy unit after they've charged, and once they've penetrated deeply into the ranks tell them to attack; tends to result in a real massacre and a wholesale rout in a very short order.

Work with heavy infantry too mind you, or about anything else that has the mass to push into the enemy ranks that is actually able to out-fight its opponent too...

[Watchman]

im not complaining about any losses i take against them, the fact is they're unarmoured and im just wondering why it takes so long to kill them

Lethality values and sheer numbers, most likely. Plus most catas are actually configured to fight armoured opponents rather than hordes of guys in shirts - with AP weapons and so on, which often enough don't have very high attack rates and are thus sort of sub-optimal against hordes of peasants in rags.

Also, just checking, but are you using their secondary weapons or are they poking away with their lances ? 'Cause the lances are pretty much useless after the charge, and doubly so against unarmoured and numerous enemies.

[ZinedineZidane]

i dunno actually, its random, they attack with their swords sometimes, they attack with their spears sometimes, and attacking with alt doesnt seem to do anything, like with the german heavy infantry i tried to use their swords by alt clicking and clicking normally, and they kept freaking using their spears

[Watchman]

Cavalry in my experience stick quite faithfully enough to whichever of the two weapons they're told to melee with. Alt-right-click invariably has the effect of the primary weapon being used for the charge, and the secondaries being brought out once the charge bonus "expires" and being used until the combat is broken off one way or another.

Sounds to me rather like you're not doing that, which for the most part leaves the horsemen using their very slow, pointlessly AP, very low base attack value lances against a teeming horde of pigherds with knives, which is something of a dictionary definition of "wasteful".

[ZinedineZidane]

so basically ur saying i just double click to attack and then leave it alone?

[mcantu]

so basically ur saying i just double click to attack and then leave it alone?

With cavalry, alt-right click from outside their charge distance. They will line up, charge with spear/lances, then switch to swords

[Watchman]

More like "with cavalry*, always Alt-right click anyway" since you sometimes have to pull of a nasty, hasty, disordered charge (say, against incoming enemy horse).

*- that has secondary melee weapons to begin with; the ones with missiles need Alt in any case

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

My advice would be: don't use cavalry against skirmishers unless you know they are going to break. Their loose formation prevents the charge from landing as hard and their numbers mean that they can easily surround your horses.

[econ21]

My advice would be: don't use cavalry against skirmishers unless you know they are going to break. Their loose formation prevents the charge from landing as hard and their numbers mean that they can easily surround your horses.

That's been my experience with the realism mods like EB and RTR. I think it is the vanilla RTW engine that is at fault - there seems to be some weird thing where cavalry loses its charge bonus when pursuing retreating troops - but you only notice it in realism mods where cavalry is more fragile. And in such mods, cavalry is often so expensive that you want to reserve it for battle winning charges, not driving off some skirmishers.

In realism mods, I find slingers or other ranged units are good counters to skirmishers. In such mods, ranged units often struggle against heavily armoured infantry from the front, but do well against lightly armoured skirmishers without large shields.

[konny]

ok 1st thing is 1st...

What battle difficutly were u playing in???

M, what else?

2nd: Equites are not really good cavarly. Thier charge is OKish and the melee is not that great.

Yes, told them Romans to learn some Greek, put a little iron on that horse and use a longer lance; but, alas, no one is listening. So, Equites are all I have.

3rd: WHAT skermisher were u fighitng???

Yes, had to call them back to order again - I think that's why they are called rebells.

4th: Velites have spears, so they will give cavarly a hard time.

Ah no, that are the archaic Leves, what I am around with; the people that rebell on my lands are allready a reform ahead and use the knife-piecing Velites.

5th Did u Charge them????

1st Charge them

2nd Change to sword and cut them

[Watchman]

My advice would be: don't use cavalry against skirmishers unless you know they are going to break. Their loose formation prevents the charge from landing as hard and their numbers mean that they can easily surround your horses.

Oh yeah, the RTW engine did have this annoying thing going. I remember some pretty surreal mounted archer-chases. More than little annoying too, given that IRL light open-order troops were normally dead period if caught in the open by horse.

Still, decently armoured cavalry can usually just ride right through the formation, killing some people, turning around and repeating until the hapless skirmishers break - which is usually soon enough.

Can't vouch for the 1.0 ones with spears of course...