Norse Archers – A unit guide

[WhiskeyGhost]

Archers in general work pretty good on the flanks, or if your capable of performing it right, on a V angle.

i was thinking something like this:

------------Inf\---/Inf
------------Arc----Arc

the one of the left shoots at the right side engaged enemies (no obstructed LoS) while the on of the right does the same to the left side

note: your units are still forming a line, but because of where your shooting from, you don't have your troops right in front of the enemy troops, theres enough space for a non "high arc" shot

[Ramses II CP]

As far as routers, the #1 priority for me on collecting routers is the general, and the Danes don't have anything fast enough to catch 'em. Scouts are the same speed as Huscarls and War Clerics, and while I understand that (As a balance factor for the AP) it makes for some frustrating battles if you don't kill the general before the rout starts.

I think you'll be surprised by the performace of swordstaff militia. They're one of those units that holds up a lot better than their stats. Not that they score a lot of kills, but they'll hold the line until there's nothing left of them and give your cavalry, DFKs, or axemen ample time to find a flank and chew through it. I was very disappointed by Obudshaer though, they did more poorly than swordstaves in every position I tried with them. Against a charge I'd take swordstaves over obudshaer every time, against cavalry or infantry.

Another often overlooked unit is Norse Swordsmen. If you get to their final armor upgrade they become cheap tanks, able to absorb arrows like crazy and march forward against manned walls with surprisingly few losses. Their lack of stamina really kills them in field battles though, and with florins piling up in the treasury DFKs get trained instead, and rightly so.

[SeekerDK]

Ramses:
I have to admit, I don't have that much experience with swordstaffs, as my western army relays heavily on castle units (from Nottingham, Inverness and Angers) and my crusading army consist of little more then NAs, Axes and Crusade mercs.

The only place I have a consistent swordstaff production is in northern Italy and thou they get put to use quite often, against Milan and France, it is only as siege defence and siege breaks.

I'm not sure I understand the routing general problem? Which faction has cav's that can outrun a general?

I agree on the Obudshaer, but again with little experience. It actually also goes for axemen, who under some conditions doesn't have the charge/killing power that their specs promise (especially against cav's I found them frighteningly useless) but then again, in the next battle they will slaughter through 2-3 groups of DFKs (as flankers) with little casualties, so still think they are worth the bother.

I agree that the Norse Swordsmen are potentially a fine unit because of its price and the fact that they have 3lvls of armor upgrade, but they are still weaker then DFKs and their attack is exactly the same as a NA unless they've been by a Swordsman's guild, still 25f more expensive pr turn and they are on full castle upgrade after. So thou they might be a fine unit, I still prefere to use NAs for my swordsmans needs, if not DFKs.
Thou I actually dislikes DFK and mostly try to avoid training them, as they (as I said in another thread) can't kill anything with more armor then a garden snail

[Ramses II CP]

Almost all factions have fast cavalry (Mailed Knights for most western Europeans) that can catch up to and capture a General or other heavy cavalry. Here's a good thread about cavalry values:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=fast+cavalry

So just to try to put everything together on my methodology of Danish field battles:

1. Use Norse Archers to bring the enemy forward. Castle crossbowmen are okay too, but much harder to reach and not quite as reliable or durable.

2. Swordstaff militia hold the line and contain the enemy, but don't kill so many that the rout is on.

3. Huscarls and War Clerics clear away the enemy ranged units and envelope the main line while Norse Archers and heavy infantry move to the flanks.

4. A volley of fire arrows and a charge by available cavalry and the NA/HI sparks the rout, and hopefully the enemy General doesn't just carve a path out and escape.

This method gets you maximum prisoners for ransom and easy soldier experience.

As an example of the cavalry speed issue when I fought what should have been the last battle against the Timurids in my campaign their last Khan fled the battle at the end. I sent Scouts to chase him, and actually was able to use infantry to head him off twice, so that he crossed the map three times before escaping. My Scouts simply never got close to him, even when he turned around and I cut the corner he was able to stay ahead of them easily. Extremely frustrating.

I found with the axemen that they suffer from the infantry charge problem. If you get a well executed (or lucky) charge off then they get a huge head start in the battle, but a lot of times the charge is all scattered out and their momentum grinds to a halt. I tell you what though, they get some of the best combat animations in the game close up. Sometimes when they do the footsweep attack on a wall the enemy goes flying right off the edge; it's awesome to watch.

[SeekerDK]

Almost all factions have fast cavalry (Mailed Knights for most western Europeans) that can catch up to and capture a General or other heavy cavalry. Here's a good thread about cavalry values:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=fast+cavalry

Alright, that was news to me. Interesting. T
hou it seems that Crusade Knights, Huscarls and Mailed Knights (War clerics assumed also, but can't find stats on that one) all have the same speed. So don't know why Huscarls should be worse at capturing routers, unless it an "animation issue".

So just to try to put everything together on my methodology of Danish field battles:

1. Use Norse Archers to bring the enemy forward. Castle crossbowmen are okay too, but much harder to reach and not quite as reliable or durable.

2. Swordstaff militia hold the line and contain the enemy, but don't kill so many that the rout is on.

3. Huscarls and War Clerics clear away the enemy ranged units and envelope the main line while Norse Archers and heavy infantry move to the flanks.

4. A volley of fire arrows and a charge by available cavalry and the NA/HI sparks the rout, and hopefully the enemy General doesn't just carve a path out and escape.

This method gets you maximum prisoners for ransom and easy soldier experience.

It's a fine strategy, but remember everyone.
Consider and define your strategy for each battle according to your own stack and (more importantly) your enemies stack.

Thou I find the castle crossbowmen close to pointless. I use the militia ones in stead. Lower upkeep, same range and effect and the defense isn't really that important. If they get in a melee situation, you've made a mistake and should be rightfully punished for it and in case of archer v archer, the blacksmith upgrades evens out the difference in armor and defense skill difference only matters in melee)

[Ramses II CP]

The speed thing is more complicated that I remembered. A thread specifically about it:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=cavalry+speed

It's quite possible that my tests with Scouts failed because Scouts have no stamina bonus and simply become tired before they can catch an enemy General. War Clerics are in the same boat I think, but Huscarls (IIRC) do have some stamina and should have the same mount as Mailed Knights and I still don't remember ever catching an enemy General with them. I'll have to check it again.

I didn't address offensive sieges either, where I'd usually avoid bringing swordstaves just because they're not killers even if you use NA to force the enemy out of the square.

[Boyar Son]

not meaning to be a jerk NA are versatile units but...

ottoman infintry can do the same.

[SeekerDK]

The speed thing is more complicated that I remembered. A thread specifically about it:

I used the speedstats from R'as al Ghul's fact sheets: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76702
http://www.mizus.com/Ras/Cavalry.html
Don't think it is wrong to assume them correct?

It's quite possible that my tests with Scouts failed because Scouts have no stamina bonus and simply become tired before they can catch an enemy General.

Scouts use standart ponys (normal), so they aren't really faster then Huscarls or Frankish Knights. It's correct that Denmark has no FAST cavs, but since Generals bodyguards are slow, normal should be able to cut it.

I didn't address offensive sieges either, where I'd usually avoid bringing swordstaves just because they're not killers even if you use NA to force the enemy out of the square.

After you warm recommendations, I made an effort yesterday to have some swordstaffs join my western Europe army and used them on a couple of sieges. I thought they worked just fine. Vulnerable to tower fire and missile units, but actually great front line troops with a small army of NAs volleying fire at the chargers. Once i breached the walls and took the walldefenders out, I had very few casualties in the streets, as the units that charged out of the center routed shortly after meeting the spearwall due to the rain of fire.

[SeekerDK]

WhiskeyGhost:
Thats a nice way of doing it. Good illustration and great addition to the debat :)

I do somthing similar, thou I use axes on the inside and then charge crisscross and then move the archers on the outside/backside, so as to kill/catch routers.

More tactical ideas and recomendations please, everyone :)