EB 1.0 Elephants... WOW

[EdwardL]

Some things are really worth applause with 1.0.. well alot of things actually :)

EB have taken a somewhat new approach to unit balance. Some people are highly upset over the shift in balance to particular units they have grown accustomed to. I've grown off of a few units myself, but no tears shed. I've noticed that alot of the heavy infantry do not have bonuses to stamina, whereas light and medium infantry do. Cool, I can dig that as it brings a new perspective to the lighter infantry classes, and I feel im more inclined to take a look at fitting a couple into my stacks. Now onto the topic of hand..

I shyed away from elephant recruitment many EB versions ago. I was not impressed with them when 1 single akontistai, between his volleys, and skirmishing wiped out my elephant unit. You can imagine the look on my face when 1 single front facing VOLLEY of camillian reserve javelins wiped out ALL of my 1.0 african tower elephants. To my suprise I then noticed that all elephants, including the kataphracts have 2 HP (the same as naked men).

Lets look at the numbers;



1 unit of armored indian elephants

23000 to recruit, 5750 unit upkeep

will LOSE to:

1 unit of akontistai

751 to recruit, 188 unit upkeep


1 unit upkeep of armored elephants will pay upkeep on 30 akontistai.
1 unit upkeep of armored elephants will pay upkeep on 16 liby-phoenician infantry.

Historically elephants were a proactive force on the battlefield. In most cases, the opposing force had to base their strategies or formations around ideas to counter those elephants or be swept off the battlefield. Elephants in many occasions formed the front, and juggernaught of force that punched through lines so infantry can move in and take advantage of units in disarray.

Unfortunately this seems to have failed in translation going into the EB system. Instead of being a unit that sets the conditions of the battlefield, it seems that too many conditions need to be met before elephants can be of any use.

Idealy I am not suggesting that based on the logic of since elephants have uber costs, they should be uber kill units. What should be looked at is the role the elephants play, which right now seems to be that of a cavalry role(coincidentaly although they have a bonus vs cavalry, they seem to be losing to all cavalry now).

What I suggest is a line crasher style role;

bring down the defense and armor to 0-5 range with exception to armor for kataphracts. push HP to 10-15 range. bring down lethality, attack, and charge values.

the end product should be a unit that can punch through lines 2-3 non phalanx units deep without causing alot of casualties or taking too many in the process. Ideally the real damage should come from moving friendly infantry into the wake of out of formation units the elephants caused. If the elephants get bogged down, or intentionally skirmish, they shouldnt cause too many casualties due to toned down attack, lethality and perhaps attack speed values. They should have high survivability due to high HP to give the commander enough time to decide if he wants to keep the elephants in the skirmish for a short time so as to move other units around, or pull them out. Prolonged melee should result in their eventual demise due to the fact that all unit types being able to put dmg on their low defense / armor, save the armored elephants which should give a better account of survivability.


Food for thought.

[Watchman]

I'm not familiar with the no doubt somewhat complicated reasoning behind the 2 HP eles, but granted I find it peculiar animals so large and generally resilient have been made so brittle. AFAIK one of their main selling points IRL (psych warfare aside) was the sheer difficulty of stopping one of the blasted things when it came at you.

[EdwardL]

I'm not familiar with the no doubt somewhat complicated reasoning behind the 2 HP eles, but granted I find it peculiar animals so large and generally resilient have been made so brittle. AFAIK one of their main selling points IRL (psych warfare aside) was the sheer difficulty of stopping one of the blasted things when it came at you.

yes thats exactly the idea. elephants really should be about the shock and awe, and mobile bastions of defense as opposed to some kind of melee machine

It really doesnt make sense to see 8 armored elephants fall to 1 volley of javelin fire, whereas that same volley cannot kill a single light-medium phalanx soldier.

[Spoofa]

I'm not familiar with the no doubt somewhat complicated reasoning behind the 2 HP eles, but granted I find it peculiar animals so large and generally resilient have been made so brittle. AFAIK one of their main selling points IRL (psych warfare aside) was the sheer difficulty of stopping one of the blasted things when it came at you.

Agreed, If all you had to do was throw a few pointed sticks at the beast to take him down then.... well I probably wouldn't have used them at all IRL.

[Landwalker]

Although I've also found the elephants frustratingly... fragile, look on the bright side. At least they have hit points.

Cheers.

[Intranetusa]

lol, it seems EB 1.0 is very buggy at the moment...

[Megalos]

Here's an old thread that may or may not answer some of the questions regarding Ele's.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60366

[Foot]

lol, it seems EB 1.0 is very buggy at the moment...

Its comments like these that really make me not want to be a part of this modding community anymore. I'm really getting pissed off by the attitudes of some people on this forum. We don't mind criticism, the OP is a damn fine way of putting it, but the above comment was neither useful nor appreciated. We have literally worked our butts off for you and the best you can do is insult us.

EB 1.0 is not very buggy at the moment. Three stats issues have been raised, two of them (evocata & elephants are being looked at), the third (romans vs everyone else) has developed into a real crappy thread. Where are all these bugs you are talking about?

Quite frankly, the attitudes of a tiny minority are seriously making me want to take a break.

Foot

[stupac]

Well, it's not just in EB1.0, it has been that way from previous versions. Though I appreciate the EB team's attempt to keep elephants from being too incredible, they should at least take a few volleys of javalins to stop, and probably shouldn't automatically kill any infantryman they nudge. As of right now, they can single handedly decimate most armies without a unit of skirmishers if they are used properly so they don't get hung up in melee.

As far as buggy goes, I'm very impressed by 1.0's stability. It appears very polished. Though I may disagree with some of the teams methods of portraying certain units, I wouldn't consider them bugs or things that NEED to be worked out in order to enjoy probably the best game I've ever played.

[Landwalker]

Three stats issues have been raised, two of them (evocata & elephants are being looked at), the third (romans vs everyone else) has developed into a real crappy thread.

Are y'all going to look at chariots, as well? If not, then I assume they're already set up as desired, in which case, would you mind explaining it to me? Somebody mentioned in the other thread that there are separate hit point pools for rider and mount, but I'm not sure what that means or what effect it has--all I know is that I've never seen anything die as quickly as chariots do (even in a melee between two of my generals and one enemy general, all chariots, the casualties involved in a mere thirty seconds were astronomical).

Cheers.

[Megalos]

Foot, rest assured that yours and the teams work is much appreciated, by most of the people that read these boards.


It seems the 'kiddies' (and I mean in attitude rather than age), seem to shout loudest.


I have not encountered many bugs at all, and those that I have, have not been game breaking at all (little typos here and there).



Please EB team, take no notice of idiots who spout before they think.



Mega

[Watchman]

Echo that. Some of the statting choices the team may have made may not work as intented, or simply seem odd initially, but that's quite different from bugs or somesuch and the mod's still certainly nothing short of incredible.

[Moros]

the elephants are just a small mistake that apparantly sneaked in. The defence points (armour + def skill) of the riders and the elephants themselves accidently got switched.

The way elephants are now, is not our vision nor our intention or a product of a bad stat system. It's just a small mistake of a modder who worked his pants of on more than 400 units. You can imagine that some errors sneak in. Unfortnatley this is one is rather noticeable.

This issue will be addressed in a next version, a patch or hotfix (whatever will be released first). Also it's an easy fix just swapping the values in the EDU.
If needed I'll write a how to on it.

[Intranetusa]

Its comments like these that really make me not want to be a part of this modding community anymore. I'm really getting pissed off by the attitudes of some people on this forum. We don't mind criticism, the OP is a damn fine way of putting it, but the above comment was neither useful nor appreciated. We have literally worked our butts off for you and the best you can do is insult us.

EB 1.0 is not very buggy at the moment. Three stats issues have been raised, two of them (evocata & elephants are being looked at), the third (romans vs everyone else) has developed into a real crappy thread. Where are all these bugs you are talking about?

Quite frankly, the attitudes of a tiny minority are seriously making me want to take a break.

Foot

First of all, I'm not criticizing the mod in general...just some specific aspects.
And actually dude, I can't even play EB 1.0 on my Vista laptop because it keeps CTDing. I can only play it on my old laggy PC with XP.
And I already ran the validation/quick-par software like 4 times, and have been reinstalling RTW & EB for the last 4 days now on my vista pc...to no avail.
So yes, if you're trying to play on Vista, I will say EB 1.0 makes your game crash.

Please EB team, take no notice of idiots who spout before they think.
Mega

Why don't you try to installing and playing the game on windows Vista? I'm sure reinstalling the 5+ gigabytes of 'Rome Total War + EB' 30x over over again over the course of 4 days will change your mind.

[Megas Methuselah]

@Megalos

Well said. Some of these people can be real whiners...

[Redmeth]

First of all, I'm not criticizing the mod in general...just some specific aspects.

And actually dude, I can't even play EB 1.0 on my Vista laptop because it keeps CTDing. I can only play it on my old laggy PC with XP.

And I already ran the validation/quick-par software like 4 times, and have been reinstalling RTW & EB for the last 4 days now on my vista pc...to no avail.

So yes, if you're trying to play on Vista, I will say EB 1.0 makes your game crash.

So phone Microsoft or CA... really dude we'd have to provide you with compatibility? If RTW works on your laptop then it's an unsufficient RAM problem most likely.

[stupac]

This issue will be addressed in a next version, a patch or hotfix (whatever will be released first). Also it's an easy fix just swapping the values in the EDU.
If needed I'll write a how to on it.

They just seemed to act to me like they did in previous versions, but I've only fought 2 battles with them. I'd like to encourage the "how to" if you have the opportunity, Moros, but would that be save compatible? Thanks for the info.

[Moros]

Are y'all going to look at chariots, as well? If not, then I assume they're already set up as desired, in which case, would you mind explaining it to me? Somebody mentioned in the other thread that there are separate hit point pools for rider and mount, but I'm not sure what that means or what effect it has--all I know is that I've never seen anything die as quickly as chariots do (even in a melee between two of my generals and one enemy general, all chariots, the casualties involved in a mere thirty seconds were astronomical).

Cheers.

How chariots work:
A single chariot has atleast one rider on it. It would've been quite an unusefull thing if there weren't riders, I bet. Now if one of the riders dies, the other riders on the chariot and the chariot itself ofcourse shouldn't die/break. Every rider and the chariot itself have their own health points (HP), which are individual. However if the chariot is destroyed the riders die too. Now the HP's determine the number of lethal hits a unit, mount or in this case rider or chariot can take. Riders, being humans not on drugs (or at east that's what their commanders think), have one HP. Hence after one lethal hit, they die. (EX. a spear thrust in the heart). The chariots ( or elephants for that matter) are different, and can take multiple hits. (I guess chariots don't have hearts nor can they suffer from bloodloss I've heard,... )

I haven't played with chariots nor have I checked their stats, but I'm quite confident that they are how they are intended.

[Intranetusa]

So phone Microsoft or CA... really dude we'd have to provide you with compatibility? If RTW works on your laptop then it's an unsufficient RAM problem most likely.

At this point I have no idea if it is a version error 1.5 or 1.6, EB script incompatibility with Vista, Vista blocking access error, incomplete file error, or whatever...

and I have 2 GB of RAM...more than enough

[Moros]

They just seemed to act to me like they did in previous versions, but I've only fought 2 battles with them. I'd like to encourage the "how to" if you have the opportunity, Moros, but would that be save compatible? Thanks for the info.

unless you'e changing actual units or their ownerships and faction skins, unit order,... Unit changes are savegame compatible. I can guarantee that such a small change (just editing stat values), will keep the game savegame compatible.

I'll write up a how to tomorrow, it's late and I'm lazy. Especially the latter.

[Watchman]

Unit-stat modifications to the EDU are fully savegame compatible and take effect instantly, more or less. AFAIK around the only stuff that isn't savegame compatible is anything that alters the actual content of the strategy map (although the incompatibility only means the modifications will have no effect on an ongoing campaign AFAIK), character trait files (which tend to go very spectacularly screwy) and some other such peripheral stuff.

As for the chariots, back in previous edition weren't they given two HP to represent the horse team ? Mind, I guess there's a reason that got ditched. Would still like to know it though, if only because I'm a curious person.

[Landwalker]

How chariots work:
A single chariot has atleast one rider on it. It would've been quite an unusefull thing if there weren't riders, I bet. Now if one of the riders dies, the other riders on the chariot and the chariot itself ofcourse shouldn't die/break. Every rider and the chariot itself have their own health points (HP), which are individual. However if the chariot is destroyed the riders die too. Now the HP's determine the number of lethal hits a unit, mount or in this case rider or chariot can take. Riders, being humans not on drugs (or at east that's what their commanders think), have one HP. Hence after one lethal hit, they die. (EX. a spear thrust in the heart). The chariots ( or elephants for that matter) are different, and can take multiple hits. (I guess chariots don't have hearts nor can they suffer from bloodloss I've heard,... )

I haven't played with chariots nor have I checked their stats, but I'm quite confident that they are how they are intended.

That makes perfect sense--if the chariots could indeed take multiple hits in the game. As it stands, they drop like drunken flies at the slightest provocation, because they have no hit points. Although it might be explained away as the riders dying, not even the weakest infantry fall as quickly as this happens, so I'm left to assume that it's because of a problem with the chariot.

Cheers.

[Admetos]

If it really bothers you so much and you can't wait for a hotfix, why not just add hit points in the edu yourself?

[Bootsiuv]

The mod can't afford to lose Foot.

I hope you'll realize that most of us understand that putting out a project with 23000+files in 340+folders is bound to have a few issues. There are mods that change far less that have many more issues.

It's hardly a bug....more an issue to be discussed by those who control unit stats. There obviously was some reasoning behind their decision, and I have come to trust that decision greatly.

Please don't allow less enlightened comments to turn you off of the project as a whole. I've seen in my relatively short time here that you are quite vital to EB's success (and EB2 for that matter).

Bootsiuv

[johhny-turbo]

At this point I have no idea if it is a version error 1.5 or 1.6, EB script incompatibility with Vista, Vista blocking access error, incomplete file error, or whatever...

and I have 2 GB of RAM...more than enough

I run EB on my Vista laptop and it works fine. Loading times a bit longer then if I run it on my pc but other then that it runs perfect

[Landwalker]

If it really bothers you so much and you can't wait for a hotfix, why not just add hit points in the edu yourself?

As Bootsiuv has just pointed out, it is because I want to understand the reasoning behind the current state. It might not be an unintentional problem, after all, and I want to figure out exactly what the situation is, and why. Besides, not everybody on this forum knows how to poke through a laundry list of unit information and statistics and change something to his every whim. Even if I did know (or, for that matter, cared to), I would be reluctant to do it because I don't know how strong the EB team wanted chariots to be in the first place--so I don't know whether I should give the things one hit point, or two hit points, or eight hit points, or whatever (presumably not eight, since elephants themselves have only two--something else I'm sure there's a reason for that I just don't understand).

The point is, I'm not complaining about the current state of chariots, I'm just curious about it.

Cheers.

P.S. It occurs to me that you may be addressing somebody else, but that it is unclear due to your non-use of the quote function. If this is the case, I can safely be completely ignored.

Cheers.

[Zarax]

First of all, I'm not criticizing the mod in general...just some specific aspects.
And actually dude, I can't even play EB 1.0 on my Vista laptop because it keeps CTDing. I can only play it on my old laggy PC with XP.
And I already ran the validation/quick-par software like 4 times, and have been reinstalling RTW & EB for the last 4 days now on my vista pc...to no avail.
So yes, if you're trying to play on Vista, I will say EB 1.0 makes your game crash.




Why don't you try to installing and playing the game on windows Vista? I'm sure reinstalling the 5+ gigabytes of 'Rome Total War + EB' 30x over over again over the course of 4 days will change your mind.

Vista User, 1gb of RAM, no crashes.
Just remember to set the rights well in the required folders and you'll be fine.

[stupac]

And actually dude, I can't even play EB 1.0 on my Vista laptop because it keeps CTDing. I can only play it on my old laggy PC with XP.
And I already ran the validation/quick-par software like 4 times, and have been reinstalling RTW & EB for the last 4 days now on my vista pc...to no avail.
So yes, if you're trying to play on Vista, I will say EB 1.0 makes your game crash.




Why don't you try to installing and playing the game on windows Vista? I'm sure reinstalling the 5+ gigabytes of 'Rome Total War + EB' 30x over over again over the course of 4 days will change your mind.

If you had EB or RTW on your system before, you might need to make an extra step on Vista. Vista has 2 program folders (well actually 4 if you have 64bit). It has the main one found in c:\program files, but also a hidden one in the c:\users\(your username)\AppData\local\VirtualStore\program files. If you have 64-bit, the ones you want will have an (x86) after them. The ones in the virtual store will override anything in the primary one, and any changes made to the folder without administrative rights will go to the virtual store basically. So saved games or any files changed or created while EB or RTW is running. If you want to do a perfect fresh install, make sure that after uninstalling EB and RTW you delete the entire installation folders in both of the Program Files folders.

I ran into this problem when installing 1.0. I decided to do a fresh install and removed EB and RTW completely, plus the installation folders in c:\program files. But I forgot about the virtual store. When reinstalled RTW and EB I got a CTD when trying to run. I had to go back completely remove RTW and EB and then delete the files that remained in both the install folders. After that I reinstalled, bingo, no problems whatsoever.

Hope that helps.

[Intranetusa]

If you had EB or RTW on your system before, you might need to make an extra step on Vista. Vista has 2 program folders (well actually 4 if you have 64bit). It has the main one found in c:\program files, but also a hidden one in the c:\users\(your username)\AppData\local\VirtualStore\program files. If you have 64-bit, the ones you want will have an (x86) after them. The ones in the virtual store will override anything in the primary one, and any changes made to the folder without administrative rights will go to the virtual store basically. So saved games or any files changed or created while EB or RTW is running. If you want to do a perfect fresh install, make sure that after uninstalling EB and RTW you delete the entire installation folders in both of the Program Files folders.

I ran into this problem when installing 1.0. I decided to do a fresh install and removed EB and RTW completely, plus the installation folders in c:\program files. But I forgot about the virtual store. When reinstalled RTW and EB I got a CTD when trying to run. I had to go back completely remove RTW and EB and then delete the files that remained in both the install folders. After that I reinstalled, bingo, no problems whatsoever.

Hope that helps.

Holy crap dude, thanks a lot. I just looked in my virtual data folder for CA and found like 20 RTW installations. I'll delete them and reinstall and see if it'll work then.

thanks for the vista info



btw
Why does a pc need 2 program folders? >.< Vista sucks ballz for gaming.

[george585]

First of all, I'm not criticizing the mod in general...just some specific aspects.
And actually dude, I can't even play EB 1.0 on my Vista laptop because it keeps CTDing. I can only play it on my old laggy PC with XP.
And I already ran the validation/quick-par software like 4 times, and have been reinstalling RTW & EB for the last 4 days now on my vista pc...to no avail.
So yes, if you're trying to play on Vista, I will say EB 1.0 makes your game crash.

Why don't you try to installing and playing the game on windows Vista? I'm sure reinstalling the 5+ gigabytes of 'Rome Total War + EB' 30x over over again over the course of 4 days will change your mind.

Well, I am playing on Vista, and it works just fine! There were and still are occasional crashes with both v 0.81 and v 1.0, but they are both similar and happend in a very specific situation so I know how to deal with them.

Otherwise the mod is pretty stable! I enjoy it a lot!