Appreciation

[Geoffrey S]

EB 1.0 has been released. After many years and countless personal hours invested by a dedicated group of creators this epic mod is officially past its beta stage. The mod alters every aspect of RTW, ranging over hundreds of new units, thousands of lines of scripting, stunning new music and an unprecedented attempt at recreating classical languages. I don't think I've ever seen such a massive effort in modmaking, and though I wait patiently for the day I once more have a computer to actually play EB again I'm extremely impressed by what has been achieved. Earlier versions of EB have provided some of the best enjoyment I've had from computer games and 1.0 looks set to continue that.

Which makes it all the more surprising to me to see some of the reactions to the release of 1.0. EB has a large fanbase, that much has been made clear over the years. This fanbase has consistently been kept as informed as is reasonably possible, through individual posts by members to previews leading to superlatives from many fans. Yet when the mod is released it appears there is disappointment that certain aspects aren't exactly as expected. New Roman models, balancing of stats, necessity of a seperate EDU for custom battles; to be honest, I couldn't care less what the issues are exactly, and I'm sure in a number of cases there are issues waiting to be solved. What I can't fathom is the graceless and thankless way in which the EB team is being notified about such matters and the reactions. Demands for changes and frankly rude criticism is met by equally one-sided 'defense' from others, a number of topics on potentially worthwhile subjects devolving into irrelevancy within a day. At times, angry reactions from EB members fuel the fire, but I can honestly understand the bewilderment at the reaction their hard work has garnered from various members of the community.

I used to find this area of the .org a pleasnt place to follow the progress of my favourite mod and view extremely interesting posts and debates on many aspects of the classical world; now, I hesitate to click on new topics (often on old subjects dragged up yet again) as the appear or after seeing that particular people have posted. Why? What is so difficult about phrasing queries in a civil manner? How hard can it be to think about the relevancy of a comment before posting? I'm losing track of the amount of times I've had to bite my tongue and hold back from replying to certain posts, and I'll be the first to admit that I haven't always succeeded.

So think. Think how you'd feel reading your own posts as a member, and in particular think what a consistent lack of appreciation could mean for members of the mod. Voicing an opinion is fine, but please try to be polite about it.

/rant

Edit: I suppose I should make this clear. The majority of posts have been fine. This is aimed for the larger part at those that aren't, and at heated reactions to them. Both disrupt innocent subjects.

[Megalos]

Here, here!


Very well worded, and more diplomatic than what I would have written.



Mega

[Krusader]

Thanks for the comments Geoffrey S.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. We don't mind criticism or questions, but when people ask them in a manner that frankly says we owe it to them and are rude/condescending, we can't exactly smile and be polite.

[Bootsiuv]

I agree, but answering the same question 8,000 times probably does get a little annoying. I know that isn't exactly the case here, but I'm still aware of the lack of tact that some fans* seem to display.

EB .8x has provided me with dozens of hours of enjoyment. Discovering this mod reopened a side of R:TW that I didn't think was even possible. I'll likely play EB1 even as I'm beta-testing EB2 (hehe, just kidding, or am I) :P

Anyways, I can see where your coming from, but I really don't blame the members for getting steamed after reading some of the comments some people make in this place...

It's like they think that using ALLCAPS or 30 exclamation points as they rant about the removal of this unit or that or the script malfunction here or there (if any exist at all) is going to garner a respectable response. Some people really have no clue....

A pity.

Bootsiuv

EDIT: *I always say members when I'm referring to fans. I forget that the team are the members in here, but often when I say it, I'm more thinking members of the .org. So I've edited my post to reflect what I meant in the first place. I hope there wasn't any confusion.

[Spoofa]

that sword/spear thread is pretty dumb, after the first 2 pages I just stopped reading it, since its mostly an argument between 3 people that goes nowhere.

[Zaknafien]

I cant believe i spent 15 minutes writing a response on that thread. Its like aruguing with children. (maybe we are who knows). Thanks for your understanding guys. We're glad to have mature fans who know what they're talking about, or at least are eager to learn, as thats what EB is all about. Its just to be expected with the 1.0 release that alot of people come out of the woodwork and ask asinine questions.

[Spoofa]

Yeah, EB has really been a great learning experience for me, since you cant really find many books on classical warfare in my school library

I even was suicidal enough to take AP world history this year and have to say im disappointed that we have just barely skipped over the Classical era in about two days! I thought since i was in an AP class we were really going to get into it and I was going to learn a lot but I guess not.

Oh well, my teacher does have several centuries of history to cover before the may final I suppose...

Anyway, EB has been one of the things that has fueled my interest in classical history in particular and continues to fuel it.

so a big Thanks to the EB team.

[Bootsiuv]

This is very true....there has been a surge of threads in this forum in the past few days which have asked questions, most of the answers to which can likely be found in the documentation included on EB, the website, or this forum. People just hate to read....for some reason that I don't understand.

[Megalos]

This is very true....there has been a surge of threads in this forum in the past few days which have asked questions, most of the answers to which can likely be found in the documentation included on EB, the website, or this forum. People just hate to read....for some reason that I don't understand.

Ha ha, yes it is a little odd, as it takes far longer to type.

[Watchman]

This is very true....there has been a surge of threads in this forum in the past few days which have asked questions, most of the answers to which can likely be found in the documentation included on EB, the website, or this forum. People just hate to read....for some reason that I don't understand.

Eh, I work part-time in a museum. You wouldn't believe how thoroughly people can walk right by any and all useful information clearly displayed... and then come bug us about it.

The most recent record-setting example being this lady who handed over her coat in the cloakroom... over a sign laid on the desk which explained the meeting she was going to attend had the cloakroom elsewhere.

Trust me, customer-service jobs kinda make you lose faith in your fellow man.

That said, it's not like most of the recent askees meant anything bad with it - but I know well enough how irritiating it can be to have to answer the same questions over and over again, when the information could be found with very little effort. And *then* there's the occasional real annoyances...

How did it now go, illegitimi non carburandum - "don't let the bastards bury you", EB team. It's fine job you're doing.

[Han]

I love EB's fantastic work. So cheers, and those who are disrespectful to them, shame on you!

Thank you again. (I can't wait until next year when I get a new PC lol)

[Hooahguy]

Yeah, EB has really been a great learning experience for me, since you cant really find many books on classical warfare in my school library

I even was suicidal enough to take AP world history this year and have to say im disappointed that we have just barely skipped over the Classical era in about two days! I thought since i was in an AP class we were really going to get into it and I was going to learn a lot but I guess not.

Oh well, my teacher does have several centuries of history to cover before the may final I suppose...

Anyway, EB has been one of the things that has fueled my interest in classical history in particular and continues to fuel it.

so a big Thanks to the EB team.

agreed- i was looking forwards to the clasical period too, but lo and behold, just 2 weeks on it.

[TWFanatic]

Don't be too glum. The EB 1.0 Released thread has 7 pages of thanks, praise, and adoration. Not to mention threads devoted solely to thanks and numerous individual posts giving the EB team thanks and balloons.

And just because people disagree with you on certain aspects of a mod doesn't mean they're heartless, spoiled, ignorant children. It just means they disagree with you.

[skuzzy]

I do agree with the aggressive nature in which user's opinions are expressed and I for one give huge amounts of credit to the EB team for doing this freely, and professionally. I give huge amounts of respect to the EB team as if it weren't for them I would have stopped playing R:TW years ago but instead play hours upon hours a day leading to drunken stupor and spousal abuse... so maybe it's not so great (and this is a joke, please regard it as so). Well spoken Geoffrey S.

[different_13]

Hey, the thread's called appreciation, so I'll just take this opportunity to say brilliant work by everyone involved. The fact that you can post a question and have it answered by a team-member (and always one who knows what he's talking about) within 1 or possibly 3 hours at most is amazing.

I know I've had several people help me with my initial problems (which look like they were all my fault anyway!) for the last several days..

(damn this game's good!)

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Very well said Geoffrey, I'm signing underneath.
.

[Bootsiuv]

Hey, the thread's called appreciation, so I'll just take this opportunity to say brilliant work by everyone involved. The fact that you can post a question and have it answered by a team-member (and always one who knows what he's talking about) within 1 or possibly 3 hours at most is amazing.

I know I've had several people help me with my initial problems (which look like they were all my fault anyway!) for the last several days..

(damn this game's good!)

See, that's the s*** that shined the shoe black. The team members usually have no problems helping new members who ask their questions in a polite and intelligent fashion.

It's just when people come in here and create a thread about underpowered this or overpowered that....and then they commence with an OP of about six all cap words and 60 exclamation points, that they get a little pissed off (it pisses me off sometimes, and I'm not even on the team). The funniest thing is even these people eventually recieve an answer from a team member, unwarranted though it may be. I wouldn't answer them....I'd likely tell them if they didn't like my mod to **** off and go find another that suits there tastes....but I'm not as nice as some of the team members.

Bootsiuv

[Zaknafien]

well, to be quite honest we really dont care if people like it or not. We make EB to suit our own tastes as historians and lovers of antiquity, and if people like it, thats cool, we love teaching others about history. If not, then yeah, they can go **** off.

[TWFanatic]

Most of the threads are about bugs. Lovers of Antiquity surely don't love bugs.
Not that they warrant flaming or thankless ranting.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Thanks Geof. I can say that more than one longtime EB member has basically said they are forgetting about the public forum here for a while at least, due to some of this reaction. Surprising to me to see a lot of this considering the overall stability and plethora of new features/units/everything added to it.

[Parkev]

Hear Hear
(the internet told me that was short for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!" in anyone wants to know)
People seem to think EB team changed things just to spite them, instead of trying to consider the possible well-thought out rationales, and inquiring politely about the reasons for the changes.

And AFAIK the moon as more bugs than EB 1.0.

[Parkev]

New loading screen for EB or maybe just default response by team members for any unwarranted inpolitness.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Europa Barbarorum, as a mod team, has existed for over two years, running on three now. The team members have put a lot into this mod - their time, sweat...battled through illness (at least three members were diagnosed with one form of cancer or another, including myself), and tragic loss of loved ones. A lot of stress and emotions were poured out as positive energy into this labor of love. We don't get paid for it, and we don't have any expectations that this would ever happen. We do it because we want to see the best representation of this ancient time period available to all, including but not exclusively ourselves.

We're human. We are emotionally invested in our mod. We have always welcomed scholarly debate, but we have always rejected aggressive tones or criticism which is not constructive, regardless of the merit of the argument. As we have put more of ourselves in our mod and had less time in our personal lives to devote to it, we have become less patient with those people who would take issue with us in a manner that is not constructive.

So my request is: If you have an issue with our mod, present it nicely. Don't take the attitude that "you're absolutely wrong" or "there is not a shred of evidence to support your position" or any such demonstrative statements. Approach the discussion openly, sources in hand, but willing to listen. If you present sources and ask for open debate, you will get it. If you present your position in the light that there is absolutely nothing to support the opposite position, you will be presented with a mirror of that argument, with additional rancor for having presented yourself that way. If you don't like our skins, suggest how to improve them rather than simply say they're ugly. If you simply call our skins ugly, you will get an ugly response.

In very basic communications classes they will teach you to always consider your audience. If you present an historical argument with sources to the EB team with the goal of helping us change our minds, by beginning your discussion with the attitude that you are absolutely right and we are absolutely wrong is completely counterproductive to your goal. We don't squelch dissentors, we get pissed off at arrogance. There is a very real difference there, and perhaps if we were being paid for this we could afford to be completely aloof and detached and "turn the other cheek." But we're not - we're emotional volunteers who ask only one thing of the people who enjoy playing this mod: To present whatever information, argument, or criticism you have with respect. You don't have to agree, but if you want to have your argument evaluated objectively, you will need to present it objectively.

Finally, we have always encouraged people to disagree with us, given the caveat above. Spouting long diatribes about how bad we are because we don't listen to people is, first of all, completely baseless because we love to be presented with evidence, and second, completely useless because we won't bother to listen; the person making the argument simply doesn't understand us, so why would we bother to attempt to reason with them?

So, please remember the following in your communication to us:

- Present your arguments as presenting evidence, not truth
- Keep in mind that we are completely open to opposing views, but closed to arrogance in presenting said views
- Separate in your mind us shutting off arrogance as opposed to opposing views
- Keep in mind that we are a mod team and our focus is on completing work, not debating; where evidence is open to interpretation, and we interpret it one way, we will likely not change our minds unless brand new evidence is presented
- We're human, we don't get paid for this, and we react badly to both the attitudes I discuss above and people who seem to enjoy nothing more than finding reasons to criticize us

I, for one, wish I were a better person and could simply ignore the attitudes and attacks that are sometimes made here. It would be great to be completely professional in all things (striving to be more like I am in my "real" job), but the truth is that I come here to avoid the stress of daily life, to put my limited time and energy into something I enjoy, and I can't stand attitudes I perceive as arrogant or as a sense of entitlement when all I have ever wanted was to provide something fun to everyone at absolutely no cost.

Honestly, I don't think that requiring someone to suppress their ego before making a critical argument is too much to ask, given what we're doing for free here, no matter how unjust that may seem to people.

As an aside, any and all posts that contain Hitler or Nazi references when evaluating our actions, or anyone else's for that matter, will be deleted immediately, beginning this minute, including recent ones. Unless you survived the Holocaust, you have absolutely no right to make such a comparison.

Thank you.

[Bellum]

I know what your saying, Geoffrey. Several recent posts made toward EB members seemed rude at best.

[cmacq]

As you all know I’m new here, yet reading some posts I’m not entirely sure if some don’t understand that EB is far more than just a simple game? To be able to pull off something like EB v1.0, the design team merits only my deepest respect.

[J.Alco]

I haven't yet downloaded the mod, so I can't really speak first-hand on the problems or bugs there may be, but looking through the topics in the forum it looks like any bugs/errors in the mod can be fixed by someone doing exactly what is said in the FAQ or Read Me (There's a reason it's called a Read Me) and any other minor details, like the new Roman skins being slightly larger than the rest of the faction's old units, are simply that: Minor details that I've no doubt are in the process of being fixed, and which shouldn't really distract from a good EB gameplay session.

And as to the units over/underpowered arguments here on the thread, well, they're the same arguments there were last time about the Celtic factions in 0.8, just to a different tune.

I'm adding my own support for the EB team here. You guys do great work, and I for one love every aspect of EB, and when I've downloaded 1.0, I can only imagine that'll be doubly so. Keep up the great work EB team!

[Meneldil]

And just because people disagree with you on certain aspects of a mod doesn't mean they're heartless, spoiled, ignorant children. It just means they disagree with you.

Disagreeing is fine.
Throwing add hominen attacks against the EB team is not. I could quote a dozens of these simply from the "Spears are overpowered" thread.

I wholeheathedly (sp?) agree with Geoffrey, EB1 is great, I've been playing it for hours without encountering a single CTD.

[Moros]

agreed- i was looking forwards to the clasical period too, but lo and behold, just 2 weeks on it.

I've got 5 hours a week for the whole semester on the Classic period. +2 hours a week about Egypt . And we still don't go as in depth as I had liked.

Though that will change next year when about all my lessons will be about the Classic period.

[blank]

Good thoughts man.

I apparently got angry in the "spears vs swords blah blah" thread, and even though i don't consider the word "fanboy" very harsh (haha you should see what i have posted in dev forums sometimes ), some people seemed to get very insulted, so sorry about that

[Pharnakes]

I don't see what all the fuss about the swords vs spears thread is, I just read it through and it seems calm and polite to me, and you haven't even posted in it Blank, let alone be rude?


As for fanboi, if I was called a fanboi of EB, I would consider it a complement not an insult

[blank]

I don't see what all the fuss about the swords vs spears thread is, I just read it through and it seems calm and polite to me, and you haven't even posted in it Blank, let alone be rude?


As for fanboi, if I was called a fanboi of EB, I would consider it a complement not an insult

the other one... "spears are very overpowered" or sth like that