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Thread: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

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  1. #1

    Default Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    As a point of order, history books are not evidence, ancient writers and artifacts are.

    To answer your point. A veteran unit is represented by a higher level of experience anyway. Why would we have a veteran and green version of a unit we already had. If you build a unit of Cohors Reformata then those a green troops. If you want veteran units I suggest you send them out to fight.

    Either way the Roman faction already had 2.5 times as many unique units as any other faction. We are at our absolute limit.
    Then why not only allow the recruitment of Pezhetairoi only when the Deuteroi get enough experience, and so on? I mean there could be two units that would represent a fresh levy post-marian legions, more numerous, cheap and weaker, and an unit of trained and tough professional legionaries, less numerous and more expensive.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    I think we have the evocata in EB, don't we? So just raise their defense and attack value for a point or two and everything is fine.


    As a point of order, history books are not evidence, ancient writers and artifacts are.

    Who said that? (stopped reading the spear threat since a while)

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  3. #3
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    Phillip said it, and he's right of course.

    Its foolish to represent ONE unit of soldiers with more than one game unit--thats what those chevrons are for-they represent experience.

    If you're too lazy to go grow your legions into experienced units like real commanders had to do, edit your own game and have them recruitable with more experience. EB will never do it.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    Phillip said it, and he's right of course.

    Yes he is.


    (since I don't want this threat to become a discussion on the definition and right use of sources)

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  5. #5
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    really youd be better off discussing a different unit for eastern and western legionary cohorts, or even a 'northern' cohort. this has been debated internally before and has more merit--even though it probably wont happen due to unit restrictions.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  6. #6

    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    No, I'm discerning between Pezhetairoi and Deuteroi only as a question of training, not of personal wealth and status. Many from the capite censi turned into tough soldiers in the Legions, so it's not a question of your social class and wealth.

    I was clearly making this analogy as a response to Zaknafien's post. You didn't deny that there were high quality and trained legions, but you also stated that during a war, many levies would be used to fill the ranks of the army thus degrading the quality.

    I think clearly that an institution as widespread, diverse and large as the Roman army cannot be acurately represented by just generalizing one unit of Cohors Reformata. And I'm not talking about adding a veteran unit to the game, we already have the Evocati, but I'm talking about adding lower quality legions along with more trained and professional ones to represent the disparities in the Roman army. Then the Deuteroi vs. Pezhetairoi analogy comes.

    As such, a distinction between regional legions in the later Augustan Era is also a good idea.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    ....
    Those who would give up essential liberties for a perceived sense of security deserve neither liberty nor security--Benjamin Franklin

  8. #8

    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    Pezhetairoi and Phalangitai Deuteroi are drawn from different parts of the population (Pezhetairoi are wealthier) and use (slightly) different equipment (Pezhetairoi use better/more expensive equipment), which makes them two distinct units in EB.

    Your roman example is different, in that those units are just one and the same (equipment and population class wise) and as such don't need two units to represent them. A better comparison would be Hastati and Principes: principes are from a more wealthy part of the population and use (slightly) better/more expensive equipment and are therefore represented as two distict units.

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    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon
    Then why not only allow the recruitment of Pezhetairoi only when the Deuteroi get enough experience, and so on? I mean there could be two units that would represent a fresh levy post-marian legions, more numerous, cheap and weaker, and an unit of trained and tough professional legionaries, less numerous and more expensive.

    Any thoughts?
    A) Because we can't make units change as they get experience (there are units where we would do that if we could, talk to CA if you want that feature though.)

    B) That's a really bad analogy. Pezhetairoi aren't more experienced Deuteroi. Its a class distinction. To quote from the unit descriptions:

    The Phalangitai Deuteroi are wealthier members of Makedonian or Eperiot society than the majority of peasants, but are still not in the class required to be considered Pezhetairoi (voting property owners)
    C) We're not going to give Rome even more unit slots. They already have nearly twice the amount of any other faction. (I love how everyone who thinks EB hates Romans ignores the fact that they have more so much extra attention lavished on them).
    Last edited by QwertyMIDX; 10-17-2007 at 16:32.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


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  10. #10
    EB2 Baseless Conjecturer Member blacksnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Create two different legion units - Split from the Spears thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon
    Any thoughts?
    EB will not do this. We simply do not have the room, and we cannot justify this for a single faction.

    If you wish to create an unofficial mini-mod to simulate this, please check out out sub-forum.

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