Decisive battles?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Beijing
2.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zenta
3.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kluszyn
4.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo



My 4.

[cegorach]

Kluszyn... I doubt that...

Maybe Moscow in 1612 which could result in much longer chaos in Russia and stoping the Swedes from joining the 30 Years War, but not Kluszyn for sure.

[Innocentius]

I'd list the Battle of Narva as one of the most decisive battles in European history. The battle proved the Russian army to be inadquate, forcing Peter the Great and the Russians to fund its improvement. In the long run, this is what turned Russia into the pre-WWI superpower that it was, and in an even longer perspective created the "hybris" mentality of Russian foreign politics that, in a way, lasts to date.

Of course, the battle of Narva is not the cause of all this, just a triggering event.

[Furious Mental]

Russia wasn't a superpower before WWI, it was a great power. In fact the common definition of "superpower" makes it impossible for any country to have been a superpower prior to 1945.

Back to battles, what about Terek River, the major battle of the war between Toktamish and Tamerlane? If Toktamish hadn't been defeated southern Russia could still be Turko-Mongol.

[TinCow]

Personally, I think the single most decisive battle (or lackthereof) in WW2 was Dunkirk. There is reasonably strong evidence that the British would have accepted a peace deal if the BEF had been captured in its entirety. Without England in the war, the German flank would have been secured, the strategic bombing offensive would have been almost non-existent, and I would have heavy doubts about whether the US would even have attempted a landing in North Africa, let alone Europe.

I don't believe ANY of the battles in Russia were decisive, simply because I do not believe that their outcomes changed the course of the war. Even if Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad had fallen, the Soviets would likely have continued fighting from behind the Urals. Given their tenacity, tactics, and the fact that they had already managed to relocate most industrial production to safe areas, those particular battles would simply have extended the war for a while longer.

I believe that the only thing that could have changed the result on the Eastern Front would have been a fundamental shift in German policy on the occupied lands. If the Germans had treated the peoples of the various Soviet satellites properly, they would have joined the attack on the Soviets in far greater numbers. Partisan activity would also have been heavily reduced. This in turn would have had a high probability of causing internal conflict within Russia itself, possibly resulting in Stalin being overthrown with a subsequent Vichy-style peace. Of course, this part is totally impossible given Hitler's views on the slavic peoples and lebensraum.

That's one of the problems with WW2 'what-ifs'. Removing Hitler from the picture makes many thing possible, but without Hitler most of it would not have occurred in the first place.

[Kalle]

Exchange Lützen with Breitenfelt and Narva with Poltava.
/Kalle

[Icefrisco]

Top 10 Decisive battles (some may vary):

1. Marathon
2. Breitenfeld
3. Agincourt
4. Nancy
5. Tsushima Strait
6. Leuthen
7. Saratoga
8. Hampton Roads
9. Antietam
10. Yarmuk

[Innocentius]

Exchange Lützen with Breitenfelt and Narva with Poltava.
/Kalle

Why is that?

Breitenfeld was no doubt a decisive battle as "new" tactics were introduced to European warfare, but considering the importance of Gustav II as a person Lützen had the larger long-term effect.

Narva was a decisive battle, as I have explained above, but by the time Poltava was fought, the Swedish Empire was already crumbling and there wasn't much left to be done. Even if Karl XII had managed to return the better part of his army back home (this was probably the best he could hope for in his situation) it would have been no real match for the Russians to defeat them somewhere else, someplace else. Also, by 1709, most of Finland had already been, in practice, conquered by the Russians, hinting in what direction things were going.