Onin no Jidai

**CBR** · 10-20-2007, 00:02

But I love guns!

CBR

**Hunter KIng George** · 10-20-2007, 00:41

Sounds like a good idea!

**ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88** · 10-20-2007, 01:06

Originally Posted by CBR

But I love guns!

CBR

Me to

But If you Got the Idea, Then Make it Happen

**Tomisama** · 10-20-2007, 01:28

I love guns too CB

This is just for a few battles and a minor competition, if we find it interesting.

I am trying to do a little more research on this period to reinforce the following. But so far, working from what I hope is good memory, I believe some other limitations might be in order.

For this period, along with no guns, there were also no ashigaru yet. And I believe the naginata was the pole weapon for both infantry and cavalry, with the yari to come a bit later also.

I could be wrong, but am posting what I think is right, to open discussion on what units armies might be composed of.

The proposal right now is for, no Yari, no Teppo, and no special units (Hatamoto, Ninga).

That leaves:

Heavy Cavalry
Naginata Cavalry
Cavalry Archers

Samurai Archers
No Dachi (maybe)
Naginata
Warrior Monks

Was also thinking about a reduction in koku, say down to 7k, but am not sure about this.

Edit : added "maybe"

**Tomisama** · 10-20-2007, 03:10

Correction: Yaris and No Dachi are ok for the period, so just no ashis or guns.

Heavy Cavalry
Yari Cavalry
Naginata Cavalry
Cavalry Archers

Samurai Archers
No Dachi
Yari Samurai
Naginata
Warrior Monks

At 10k or more? Without the lower priced units (200, 300, 400), a little more financial room may be needed.

**ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88** · 10-20-2007, 14:19

Originally Posted by Tomisama

Correction: Yaris and No Dachi are ok for the period, so just no ashis or guns.

Heavy Cavalry
Yari Cavalry
Naginata Cavalry
Cavalry Archers

Samurai Archers
No Dachi
Yari Samurai
Naginata
Warrior Monks

At 10k or more? Without the lower priced units (200, 300, 400), a little more financial room may be needed.

10K, 12.5K or 15K. Any of those prices sound good?

**L'Impresario** · 10-20-2007, 16:08

Sounds interesting but...

Too much money and the game becomes too attritional. Without guns any incentive to buy missiles is significantly reduced; after all, instead of paying 400 koku for a SA you can pay a bit more and get a ND. Of course if it comes down to dislodging an army from a hill, archers will have a role to play, although in a 4v4 the most effective strategy in such a setting would most likely involve no missiles.

**Tomisama** · 10-20-2007, 20:04

Originally Posted by L'Impresario

Sounds interesting but...

Too much money and the game becomes too attritional. Without guns any incentive to buy missiles is significantly reduced; after all, instead of paying 400 koku for a SA you can pay a bit more and get a ND. Of course if it comes down to dislodging an army from a hill, archers will have a role to play, although in a 4v4 the most effective strategy in such a setting would most likely involve no missiles.

Hi Alex

Good fighting with you last week

My first inclination was to go to 5 to 7k with this, thinking that in the early days that armies would be smaller. Then I read numbers like 80 and 85 thousand troops, and figured that our little 960 men armies would be fine historically .

Now I am looking at less money again, but now with larger units. Imagine 5k and 120 man units (host selects huge). Beyond being a gorgeous spectacle, this transforms the game. You get only half as many units, but they are twice the size.

More thoughts?

**TosaInu** · 10-20-2007, 20:16

Hello Tomisama,

Using yari on horseback was a reaction to facing more opponents and especially the need for samurai to fence of packs of ashigaru. The Onin war and some other conflicts before that, changed the battlefield already, but mounted archery should be more important here than we saw up till now.

**Tomisama** · 10-21-2007, 14:39

Originally Posted by TosaInu

Hello Tomisama,

Using yari on horseback was a reaction to facing more opponents and especially the need for samurai to fence of packs of ashigaru. The Onin war and some other conflicts before that, changed the battlefield already, but mounted archery should be more important here than we saw up till now.

Hiya Tosa

It is my current understanding that the fighting peasants organized into military “ashigaru” units did not happen until 1485, when the ji-samurai formed the ikki army.
If it is as you say, that the mounted yari were a reaction to the quills (stekelvarken

) of the ashigaru, then should the yari cavalry be included in an Onin War conflict, which ended in 1477?

And indeed, I am thinking that without the gun wall, that the cavalry archer will emerge to fill a more important role in samurai wars also

Anyone have a reaction to 120 man units, pro or con?