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Thread: Onin no Jidai

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Onin no Jidai

    The 15th century Onin War was the prelude to the 16th century Sengoku Jidai.

    http://www.samurai-archives.com/tow.html

    I was thinking that it might be interesting to explore Samurai Warlords fighting recreating this period.

    I am thinking all things would be pretty much the same troop and weapon wise, except no firearms.

    But I'm no expert.

    Anyone interested in playing this format?
    Last edited by Tomisama; 10-18-2007 at 01:42.
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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama
    The 15th century Onin War was the prelude to the 16th century Sengoku Jidai.

    http://www.samurai-archives.com/tow.html

    I was thinking that it might be interesting to explore Samurai Warlords fighting recreating this period.

    I am thinking all things would be pretty much the same troop and weapon wise, except no firearms.

    But I'm no expert.

    Anyone interested in playing this format?

    Indeed... Sure, I won't mind playing in this format.

  3. #3
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Yes Tomisama.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  4. #4
    ..fears no adversary Senior Member Jochi Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    It would be an interesting experiment/experience Tomisama.
    R.I.P Great Warrior Ja mata TosaInu


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  5. #5
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    But I love guns!


    CBR

  6. #6

    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Sounds like a good idea!
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR
    But I love guns!


    CBR

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  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    I love guns too CB
    This is just for a few battles and a minor competition, if we find it interesting.


    I am trying to do a little more research on this period to reinforce the following. But so far, working from what I hope is good memory, I believe some other limitations might be in order.

    For this period, along with no guns, there were also no ashigaru yet. And I believe the naginata was the pole weapon for both infantry and cavalry, with the yari to come a bit later also.

    I could be wrong, but am posting what I think is right, to open discussion on what units armies might be composed of.

    The proposal right now is for, no Yari, no Teppo, and no special units (Hatamoto, Ninga).

    That leaves:

    Heavy Cavalry
    Naginata Cavalry
    Cavalry Archers

    Samurai Archers
    No Dachi (maybe)
    Naginata
    Warrior Monks


    Was also thinking about a reduction in koku, say down to 7k, but am not sure about this.

    Edit : added "maybe"
    Last edited by Tomisama; 10-20-2007 at 02:42.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Correction: Yaris and No Dachi are ok for the period, so just no ashis or guns.

    Heavy Cavalry
    Yari Cavalry
    Naginata Cavalry
    Cavalry Archers

    Samurai Archers
    No Dachi
    Yari Samurai
    Naginata
    Warrior Monks

    At 10k or more? Without the lower priced units (200, 300, 400), a little more financial room may be needed.
    Last edited by Tomisama; 10-20-2007 at 03:18.
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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama
    Correction: Yaris and No Dachi are ok for the period, so just no ashis or guns.

    Heavy Cavalry
    Yari Cavalry
    Naginata Cavalry
    Cavalry Archers

    Samurai Archers
    No Dachi
    Yari Samurai
    Naginata
    Warrior Monks

    At 10k or more? Without the lower priced units (200, 300, 400), a little more financial room may be needed.


    10K, 12.5K or 15K. Any of those prices sound good?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Sounds interesting but...

    Too much money and the game becomes too attritional. Without guns any incentive to buy missiles is significantly reduced; after all, instead of paying 400 koku for a SA you can pay a bit more and get a ND. Of course if it comes down to dislodging an army from a hill, archers will have a role to play, although in a 4v4 the most effective strategy in such a setting would most likely involve no missiles.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Impresario
    Sounds interesting but...

    Too much money and the game becomes too attritional. Without guns any incentive to buy missiles is significantly reduced; after all, instead of paying 400 koku for a SA you can pay a bit more and get a ND. Of course if it comes down to dislodging an army from a hill, archers will have a role to play, although in a 4v4 the most effective strategy in such a setting would most likely involve no missiles.
    Hi Alex

    Good fighting with you last week

    My first inclination was to go to 5 to 7k with this, thinking that in the early days that armies would be smaller. Then I read numbers like 80 and 85 thousand troops, and figured that our little 960 men armies would be fine historically .

    Now I am looking at less money again, but now with larger units. Imagine 5k and 120 man units (host selects huge). Beyond being a gorgeous spectacle, this transforms the game. You get only half as many units, but they are twice the size.

    More thoughts?
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  13. #13
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Hello Tomisama,

    Using yari on horseback was a reaction to facing more opponents and especially the need for samurai to fence of packs of ashigaru. The Onin war and some other conflicts before that, changed the battlefield already, but mounted archery should be more important here than we saw up till now.
    Ja mata

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  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    Hello Tomisama,

    Using yari on horseback was a reaction to facing more opponents and especially the need for samurai to fence of packs of ashigaru. The Onin war and some other conflicts before that, changed the battlefield already, but mounted archery should be more important here than we saw up till now.
    Hiya Tosa

    It is my current understanding that the fighting peasants organized into military “ashigaru” units did not happen until 1485, when the ji-samurai formed the ikki army.
    If it is as you say, that the mounted yari were a reaction to the quills (stekelvarken ) of the ashigaru, then should the yari cavalry be included in an Onin War conflict, which ended in 1477?

    And indeed, I am thinking that without the gun wall, that the cavalry archer will emerge to fill a more important role in samurai wars also


    Anyone have a reaction to 120 man units, pro or con?
    Last edited by Tomisama; 10-21-2007 at 14:41.
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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama
    Hiya Tosa

    It is my current understanding that the fighting peasants organized into military “ashigaru” units did not happen until 1485, when the ji-samurai formed the ikki army.
    If it is as you say, that the mounted yari were a reaction to the quills (stekelvarken ) of the ashigaru, then should the yari cavalry be included in an Onin War conflict, which ended in 1477?

    And indeed, I am thinking that without the gun wall, that the cavalry archer will emerge to fill a more important role in samurai wars also


    Anyone have a reaction to 120 man units, pro or con?

    Pro. But just my opinion.

  16. #16
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama
    Hiya Tosa

    It is my current understanding that the fighting peasants organized into military “ashigaru” units did not happen until 1485, when the ji-samurai formed the ikki army.
    If it is as you say, that the mounted yari were a reaction to the quills (stekelvarken ) of the ashigaru, then should the yari cavalry be included in an Onin War conflict, which ended in 1477?

    And indeed, I am thinking that without the gun wall, that the cavalry archer will emerge to fill a more important role in samurai wars also


    Anyone have a reaction to 120 man units, pro or con?
    Hello Tomisama,

    There have always been non samurai in the armies. Ashigaru became more an organised and professional unit during sengoku jidai and samurai became more a free duck.

    I'm not sure about (authentically) excluding units, except for teppo. I'm sure that samurai would use whatever is available, but mounted archery is more important. But for a game, anything is fine with me.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    Hello Tomisama,

    There have always been non samurai in the armies. Ashigaru became more an organised and professional unit during sengoku jidai and samurai became more a free duck.

    I'm not sure about (authentically) excluding units, except for teppo. I'm sure that samurai would use whatever is available, but mounted archery is more important. But for a game, anything is fine with me.
    Well, since simple is always best, lets make Onin Rules just no guns.

    Have a game or two and see what develops



    I really would like to play with big armies again some time though
    Last edited by Tomisama; 10-21-2007 at 18:57.
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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    I hear you guys did a no gun game yesterday. I see if I can come back this Sunday if School Permits. What type of money you guys used? normal 9k for the No Gun or no?

  19. #19
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

    We used 9k in the one no guns game we had yesterday.

    Unitsize was huge; though my top sprite eraser was an archer (apart from the HCAV who could chase), the game felt a bit like a brawl (?). Maybe we should give it another go on large or normal.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  20. #20
    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Large Size Could Work, since I do enjoy playing in Large.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Top killer for each player in the 3v3 battle with 120 man unit size and no guns:

    Tosa....HC...192
    CBR.....WM...238
    Ras.....WM...203
    Yuuki...WM...231
    Tomi....WM...249
    Noir.....CA....162


    Samurai Archer performance:

    Attackers
    ---------
    Yuuki....50, 80, 73, 145........Average = 87
    Tosa....106, 115, 104, 144....Average = 117
    Noir......126, 22, 78.............Average = 75


    Defenders
    ---------
    Tomi.....54, 54, 29, 30.........Average = 42
    CBR......80, 64, 57, 149........Average = 87
    Ras......131, 66, 113, 62.......Average = 93


    Yuuki rushed Tomi, and you can see by the numbers that Tomi's archers had the lowest kills despite the 20% shooting advantage of the defender. I believe this is partly due to the fact that archers overshoot approaching targets, although, Tomi's archers were on lower ground and engaged by melee units fairly quickly which are also factors in their low kills. It doesn't appear to me that archers present much of a deterrent to rushing.
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 10-23-2007 at 05:44.

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  22. #22
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Puzz3D
    Top killer for each player in the 3v3 battle with 120 man unit size and no guns:

    Tosa....HC...192

    Samurai Archer performance:

    Attackers
    ---------
    Tosa....106, 115, 104, 144....Average = 117
    That is correct. Details show that the lsam made more plain kills. The JHC could also make extra kills by chasing.

    It doesn't appear to me that archers present much of a deterrent to rushing.
    It doesn't seem so.

    There may be an explanation for the differences. I had 4 Ni and used them as wall, therefore not really having to bother about them. I ordered the lsam to target monks (time to micromanage them more). Most expensive, most powerful infantry combat unit and least armour => most success.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  23. #23

    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    It doesn't appear to me that archers present much of a deterrent to rushing.
    Without knowing what exactly happened there, I can guess that archers were shooting each other for quite some time (as most players picked 4 SA), and after melee started they could naturally continue providing missile support by targeting neglected units. This is an advantage compared to guns, who cannot perform this second function, but teppos can be more influential in the battle as a whole. They might score less kills but the morale penalties they inflict makes them a more reliable deterrent to rushing.
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  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    I had 4 Ni and used them as wall, therefore not really having to bother about them. I ordered the lsam to target monks (time to micromanage them more). Most expensive, most powerful infantry combat unit and least armour => most success.
    I thought about putting out an armored unit front line, but was worried about friendly kills and loss of accuracy.

    Maybe next time
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Unlike teppo, archers don't run as fast as no-dachi and monks. Besides, unless a ranged unit is directly targeted by the melee unit it doesn't retreat anyway.

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  26. #26
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama
    I thought about putting out an armored unit front line, but was worried about friendly kills and loss of accuracy.

    Maybe next time
    I had the archers deployed in front of the Ni, the Ni were a tough second line.
    Friendly kills are less of an issue compared to teppo as archers shoot in a higher arc.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  27. #27
    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    How A No Arrows Game. We use Guns, but no Archers or HA. How about that?

  28. #28
    Member Member Yoshitsune's Avatar
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    Default Re: Onin no Jidai

    Slightly OT but has anyone else tried the Onin no Ran mod for Mount & Blade?

    http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php?board=42.0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V0w_P8qJX4

    Apart from anything there's plenty of historical research included in the mod that might be useful.
    Last edited by Yoshitsune; 10-27-2007 at 14:45.

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