Which faction is best when encountering mongols

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Encountering the Mongol Golden Horde is a critical point of a Medieval II Total War Campaign. It might bring to the downfall of your faction or to the confirmation of your empire as one of the greatest powers ever to march on earth. In the poll below you may express your opinion on which faction is best when it comes to encountering the Mongols.

[RickooClan]

I think the most effective unit against mongol will be those pavise crossbowman from Milan. However, i dont think Milan will have much chance to fight with the mongol in the campaign map.

[Viking]

I found HRE reiters to be particularly good against horse archers, though they will suffer heavy casualties.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

However, i dont think Milan will have much chance to fight with the mongol in the campaign map.

I included all factions because one (if playing on easy or medium) might have already expanded a lot by then an might have to fight with the Mongols to defend his land.

Once, after many campaigns on "difficult" or "very difficult2, I played an easy-easy game with the Danish. By the time the Mongols came in, my southern boarders were at the Alps, my Western boarders were in Northern Spain, my Eastern boarders were next to Novgorod (in Russia)

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

I, myself believe the Byzantines are the best in encountering the Mongols.

This might look strange to many members since the Byzantines have very "bad" units compared to other factions. However:

1. Vardariotai and other horse archers that are available to the Byzantines are the only units which resemble the terrible Mongol horse archers. If one masters these units they will be very efficient in the struggle against the golden horn.

2. When it comes to cities, the varangian guard is great in keeping hoards of cavalry from reaching center squares by blocking them and encircling them in narrow streets. These units can efficiently carry out this task only if helped by some infantry (militia might also do), since axes ar not so good against horsemen. If the horsemen's charge is stopped and the horsemen are fighting man-to-man the Varangian guard is deadly.

3. The Byzantines combine elements of Western and Eastern units and therefore if carefully mixed an army can access the advantages of both, including the Western powerful and solid dismounted knights (see Dismounted Lantinkon), the Northern Skillful archers (see Trebzond Archers) and the Eastern horse-archers (Vardariotai)

4. Finally, I believe that the key in defeating the Mongols is wealth. The Byzantines often become the richest faction on the map and therefore they have an advantage.

5. The Byzantines have a favorable Geographical position, with many mountains and passages where one can place a fort and bridges.

[Iavorios]

For me Milan is the ultimate faction for just about anything in the campaign. First of all it does not matter what nation you are playing for the wealth and territories after 70- 80 turns, even with Scotland or Denmark. The AI is an idiot so you can conquer the middle east with any faction. But the Venetians, Milanese and HRE have banks, therefore they could be the richest if you play them right. And i'm absolutely certain that in order to fight the mongols you need a lot of money. As for the army you need a lot of spears, archers and some heavy infantry and some cav to chase routers. Using vardariotes is not effective. Yes they are the best, but are expensive and the mongols are to many. If you want to fight single combat they are perfect but for the war out attrition they are not. And biz spearmen are wartless. The milanese, on the other hand have perfect italian spear militia, genoise crossbowmen and mounted dismounted broken lances in the cites. And the standard catholic army in fortress. So it is very simple to create hordes of cheap, but effective militia units. Just what you need. It aint pretty, but it works.

[ReiseReise]

I say Milan because you only need 2 units: Genoese XBows will annihilate enemy ranged units and can fight melee, while ISM take down Hvy Cav. By this time (rather earlier I hope) Milan controls all of Italy and therefore has a killer homeland economy.

[_Tristan_]

Having defeated them with the Hungarians, I voted for them.

Hungarian nobles can stand their own in a fight, Heavy cav is of a same quality of better than the Mongols', the infantry is a bit lacking in quality but the Cav easily makes up for it.

To me, Hungary is the almost ideal deal between western style armies (Heavy Cav) and eastern syle armies (Horse archers), thus making it my favorite in dealing with the Hordes.

[Jason X]

interesting that noone has chosen a stake-archer faction yet...

turks are good for a balanced army to take them on: jan. archer stakes funnelling the horde through narrow gaps, dis. sipahis holding them and the armour piercing qupulukus for taking out the heavy lancers/khan's guards. (see this post on twcenter for how sick this tactic can be).

egypt is the best faction for the attrition approach, and you also get the option of fielding full cav armies of mamluk archers/royal mamluks.

in my current rus campaign i haven't fought them (they went south and i'm turtling for the timurids) - but i would probably go all cav

i haven't tried fighting them with england for the full-on "outshoot them" approach (next campaign prob)

i voted turks cos that was the most effective approach for me - a word here for naffatuns as helpful in a mixed anti-mongol (or timurid) army

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Using vardariotes is not effective. Yes they are the best, but are expensive and the mongols are to many. If you want to fight single combat they are perfect but for the war out attrition they are not.

I believe Vardariotai are not so expensive, if compared to other cavalry units.

Recruitment Cost: 800
Upkeep: 250

[Odin]

Having defeated them with the Hungarians, I voted for them.

Hungarian nobles can stand their own in a fight, Heavy cav is of a same quality of better than the Mongols', the infantry is a bit lacking in quality but the Cav easily makes up for it.

To me, Hungary is the almost ideal deal between western style armies (Heavy Cav) and eastern syle armies (Horse archers), thus making it my favorite in dealing with the Hordes.

Hungary is my favorite faction to play. I have defeated the mongols with hungary too, but I dont think its the best. Those hungarian nobles are a fine unit, but arent cheap, and the lack of heavy infantry is a pain as well.

You can out general the Mongols with the HA's of the hungarians, ive done it with a little help from the mongols expending some men on turkish walls. that said Milan is the best faction IMHO.

Hats off to another hungarian noble fan

[Ramses II CP]

There's little doubt in my mind that England is the best faction. Retinue Longbowmen are the only soldiers you really need. Their stakes completely neutralize the enemy melee cavalry, they will outnumber the Mongol horse archers and foot archers, and their melee stats are superior to those of all Mongol infantry. If you use an army of RLs to construct a stake fort with a protected line of retreat you can defeat any quantity of Mongols in field battles with only RL in the army. With respect to the rockets, you just have to ignore them and absorb a few losses or bring a little sacrificial cavalry to wipe them out.

The Turks also have excellent stake using archers, but their position as a nation makes them more vulnerable to the Mongols by denying them the time to prepare properly.

Those things being said, I found the Danish roster excellently capable of smashing the Mongols in the field as well, but a good general and mixed cavalry armies are required where they are not for the English.

To reiterate:

1. Stakes break the backbone of the Mongols, especially if you construct mini-forts out of them. No heavy cavalry and no dread from the General takes all the bite out of the Mongols. With no dread to worry about you don't even need an English general to lead the the longbowmen.

2. Having the preponderance of ranged units on your side allows you to force the enemy to come to you, and your stakes can ward your line of retreat to allow you to engage, bleed, and retreat over and over again against any number of Mongols, even if they stay in 'horde' mode.

3. Your Retinue Longbowmen have a shield, the advantage of position, numbers, and better attack stats than the Mongol infantry. If they stay at range you bleed them at many times the rate they bleed you, if they come to melee you massacre them.

In the end you might retreat thirty times, but the Mongols will leave a streak of blood and broken bodies across your realm until they are exterminated.

[anders]

I found HRE reiters to be particularly good against horse archers, though they will suffer heavy casualties.

i thought the reiters had lower range than the mongol HAs, how do you cope with that, doesnt the AI try to keep the HAs out of reiter range? Thought it would be hard to stay in range with lower speed and stamina than the HAs?

[anders]

I think Milan is probably the best, pavise crossbows and it. spear militia do a good job and are plentiful and relatively cheap.

For a different approach than standing your ground with infantry and pretty much not moving in battles, Poland is quite good at playing the mongols own "mobile cavalry" game with the streczly( who has a very nice AP ranged and [U]melee bonus), and very good heavy cav. havent tried, but guess much the same goes for hungary.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

You need something to neutralize their heavy cavalry and to counter their archers. This can be done with a combination of spearmen and bows (archers or crossbows) or archers with stakes. England has the best archers and its archers can plant those stakes. The danger with spearmen is that the will crumble before the dread of the Mongols. Stakes don't route and are excellent in killing Mongol heavy cavalry. I voted for England.

[Zenicetus]

I agree with Ramses II about English archers, if we're just comparing units and ignoring geographic position.

For strategic placement, I think Hungary is one of the best factions to take advantage of the Mongols, since you have the Turks and Byzantines as a buffer (assuming they don't sweep around to the north). You can let the Mongols bleed out on the Turks and/or the Byzantines, which softens up your neighbors for a Hungarian invasion.

So I'd say England on the battlefield, and Hungary on the strategic map.

[TevashSzat]

My vote goes to the turks simply because they will be well established in the region once the mongols come. Secondly, they get so much HAs that it is quite easy to get all cav armies which are more than a match for the more well balanced mongolian armies since you gain the mobility advantage and can easily mob the mongol cav early in the battle.

[Budwise]

Nothing but various forms of Longbowmen using stakes. Plus, Billmen do pull their own if used right.

[Skott]

In my Turk campaign (TLR Mod) I find a stack of Saiphis (sp?) works very well against the Mongols. You'll take alot of casualties but you'll also decimate a Mongol stack.

When it comes to western factions bowmen (like Longbow men) works better against Mongols than crossbow men. Crossbow men usually have better armor but they are slower to shoot and have shorter range. Also if your bowmen can plant stakes its especially helpful against mongol mounted troops.

I find mounted archers like Siaphis to be the best so far but not the only way to defeat Mongols. So I'd say Turks and England are the two best. I havent tried using Moors or Egyptians against Mongols yet. Camel Gunners might do some sweet damage to them although their ammo doesnt last long.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Plus, Billmen do pull their own if used right.

Why Billmen?

[imnothere]

by slapping the mongols with heavy fines for illegal entry and parking of horses, and then hitting them with heavy str 13-15 attack if they don't pay.

i do agree that it is tricky to use billmen. but parking behind the stakes makes it alot easier. plus with the two-hander bugs, i don't really use them by themselves and more of a suppliments with mercenary spears and levy spears. maybe 1 unit of bills to 4 units of spears.

plus any mongol infantry units that want to wade into combat while my other spears are engaged will get slap very hard with heavy bills.

welcome back Budwise.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

If that is the case with Billmen, you could also use viking axemen (powerful enough) by playing with the Danes. They are as good as billmen, not to say that they might also be better.

The problem here with the English is that if you created a "fort" with stakes from Longbowmen the Mongol Horse Archers with circle around the fort and shoot your soldiers down!

In my experience, I have not been able to avoid this.

Returning to what I said about the Danes, they are inferior to the the English since they lack stake-placing archers. However, in my Danish campaign on Difficult/Difficult, I stopped the Mongol Horde, thanks to a line of forts and cities resembling the Maginot Line (Second World War).

[I really need to find that screenshot! )

I had constructed a line of forts from Denmark to Venice and supported it with loads of Huscarls. (I believe this cannot be included as an example since by then I had achieved an incredible expansion and wealthy which I have never matched in any other campaign I played)

[Jason X]

The problem here with the English is that if you created a "fort" with stakes from Longbowmen the Mongol Horse Archers with circle around the fort and shoot your soldiers down!

In my experience, I have not been able to avoid this.

but the point is that longbowmen completely outrange mongol HA - massed foot archers are exactly the counter you need to HA heavy armies. the stakes just make them uber! the only issue is getting them to attack you and dealing with any artillery

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

but the point is that longbowmen completely outrange mongol HA - massed foot archers are exactly the counter you need to HA heavy armies. the stakes just make them uber! the only issue is getting them to attack you and dealing with any artillery

Aren't the HA difficult to hit if moving?

[RickooClan]

It will be no doubt the most effective way to kill HA is using shooting unit. And in any shooting duel pavise unit simply own as they can minimize the damage from range attack.

I cant really see why a longbow unit can do a better job than, lets say pavise crossbowman in terms of killing the mongols HA.

Other than the HA, the mongols army does not give much trouble, any factions with decent spearman and moderate infantry can get the job done. You dont really need the stakes to preventing the HA or calvary hitting you.

Also for the stakes....how about the mongols camping at a defensive position and waiting your army to come? As the mongol army consist a majority of shooters actually they tend to play defensively rather than offensively.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

For me it is important that one stack can do a lot of damage and stay alive. This means that the stack must be able to win a battle and be able to fight an other one during the same turn.

The usual battle against the Mongols is one of your stacks against two of theirs. This means that they have more than enough heavy cavalry to destroy a line of spearmen. Together with their high dreaded generals your infantry is likely to route. Genoese crossbow militia have a 3 morale and Italian spear militia have 5 morale. This means that when they get tired they will route. You can win but it also can go horribly wrong. Fighting two battles during the enemies turn with a militia army probably won't work.

English yeomen have also 5 morale but their stakes don't route. If you deploy your units at a defensive position and back the Yeomens up by some armored swords and some heavy cavalry you can win with relative low losses. Your army van fight an other day and still be successful.

250th post

[Ramses II CP]

Regarding the Mongols not attacking, if you have missile superiority (And you will with the English plan) the AI will come to you. The only cases where they will not are second stacks that suffer from the passive AI bug, but your arrows will not likely suffice for a second stack anyway, so withdraw and attack the reinforcement stack this time. Quite frankly in my experience the Mongols are never defensive unless they're suffering the passive reinforcement bug or they're across a bridge/ford with overwhelming ranged superiority.

With regard to hitting moving horse archers, your men have shields and the HA's movement reduces their own accuracy while running them the risk of smacking your stakes. If the HA are constantly moving, target the other enemy units or use one of your longbow contingents to bait them into a charge against the stakes. If all else fails, shoot out your arrows and withdraw to hope for better terrain in the next engagement. Ideally your position wouldn't allow the HA to take higher ground than you and if your line of retreat is staked out they can't get fully behind you. Remember, you can train more Longbowmen, the Mongols can't retrain anything, so all you have to do is keep them bleeding faster than you.

[Daveybaby]

Another vote here for the english.

Also for the stakes....how about the mongols camping at a defensive position and waiting your army to come? As the mongol army consist a majority of shooters actually they tend to play defensively rather than offensively

Yeah, but the mongols will very rarely do that in practice. And even if they do, you can usually goad them into attacking by sending a sacrificial unit in their direction.

English retinues with stakes are actually so effective against the mongols that its almost an exploit IMO. Pavise xbows might be more effective in a pure archery shoot out, but theyre going to be mincemeat when the mongol heavy cav come calling. The whole point of the english archers is that you have one unit type which simultaneously out-performs all of the mongol unit types.

FWIW: most <i>fun</I> i've had against the mongols is with the Russians. 50% Boyar sons to attack the heavy cav (javelins) and foot archers (melee), and 50% kazaks for HA vs HA dueling.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Yeah, but the mongols will very rarely do that in practice. And even if they do, you can usually goad them into attacking by sending a sacrificial unit in their direction.

Not true, most times after more or less 20 turns, they start settling down and being offensive. At that point you will attempt, to come to terms with them or take your lost territories back. If you chose the second you will have attack them!!!

[Henry707]

Hi All

I agree with Alexander - has to be the Byzantines - fantastic anti-mongol armies particularly with those guard archers & brilliant horse archers. You can defeat the Mongols simply by copying their armies.

Henry