Voulgiers, Guard Mode and Spearwall - how to use it?

[moonshiner57]

Hi all,

after all the help I got here with my last Byzantine campaign, I have recently taken the fate of the French into my hands, again using the highly recommended LTC mod. Things are going well and at 1220 my fortress in Toulouse is able to produce Voulgiers. Tres bien!!!

Les Voulgiers are very welcome to defend against the backstabbing Portugese - now if I only knew what combination of Guard Mode/Spearwall is best used? I usually deploy defensively, as most attacking is done by the superb French cavalry. I use Guard Mode then, wanting the Voulgiers to stay in line and hold, rather than kill.

Should I turn Spearwall on as well? Or turn it off? I have really no idea what it does apart from the nifty stance my men take - what effects does it have?

Generally, fellow french players - how do you like to use Voulgiers? They just look too cool to be relegated to the sidelines methinks.

Merci all!

[Henry707]

Bonjour,

As an experienced France player, I would say leave them on the touchline with the half-time garlic & baguettes.

The French have a great unit roster & there's better in there for whatever job you have in mind so ditch them is my advice.

I can't answer your question proper as I just had a quick look at them, then used other units instead. I'm not good with names but the shield guys (seargants?) are great blockers & in the late period you have plenty of hackers & slashers in there.

Keep on with France mon ami & turn the world into a one big snail-eating monde!!!!

Bon chance.

Henri

[WhiskeyGhost]

I would suggest trying the Spearwall +Guard mode On till initial impact, then turning off Guard Mode technique. It's worked wonders with anything with spearwall i've used before, even halberds (to some degree)

[Kobal2fr]

I have to agree on this - voulgiers seem to be weak halberdiers, and seeing that regular halberdiers aren't that great anyway...
Besides, France has the best horses there are. And basically, that's all they need : anything that has "spear" or "pike" in their name, you let the footknights and/or Xbows butcher. Anything else, you charge right through with your horses. It's no bug that France has both Noble Knights and Chivalric Knights with the same stats : you have twice more cav than anyone else. Factor in order knights (templars/hospitalers), and you can pretty much steamroll any army, be it on foot, on horse or with bows. See my sig for further details :)

Voulgiers can theoretically hold a horsecharge if in spear wall, but then again so can your own cav...

[Grog]

Ah but you forget Kobal, there is always a place for style over efficiency!

Seriously though, I usually found a place for voulgiers in my french late armies after they proved themselves against the mongols. Sure I always keep some chivalric cav, lots of DFK and some DNK, and the rest arbusquiers/scots guard, but the voulgiers in spearwall set in front of Trebs/cannon on a hill were always useful for me. I certainly found them more durable than the french late city pikes at any rate.

Also, I have had Voulgiers stand up to an elephant charge long enough for my DNK's to flank charge in, although my general was close behind the spearwall.

[TevashSzat]

I would suggest trying the Spearwall +Guard mode On till initial impact, then turning off Guard Mode technique. It's worked wonders with anything with spearwall i've used before, even halberds (to some degree)

This is the best strategy I believe. NEVER have guard off during impact as it will just waste your spearwall formation

[TheLastPrivate]

I love voulgiers personally, and if the french had musketeers I probably use them more though. Must make do with aventuriers...
Keep the spearwall and guard mode on, and after the enemy charges the wall turn off guard mode immediately and set them hacking. Spearwall doesn't seem to make that much of a difference, as they have no secondary weapons and they don't poke anyways. But its good to have a non-spear infantry that can survive a charge and have AP.

[Czar Alexsandr]

Voulgiers are a highly defensive troop armed with a halberd. They are excellent infantry that can fight well and hold their own in any battle. The durability of thesse guys is truly amazing. I've done countless battles where the Voulgeirs are surrounded and manage to hold off until I can send in reinforcements. And that's the best thing about the Voulgier I think. They can survive anything. They can't beat every enemy, but they can certainly be an obstacle to any opponent. Try using them on the flanks to trap enemy infantry.

[Kobal2fr]

Ah but you forget Kobal, there is always a place for style over efficiency!

Seriously though, I usually found a place for voulgiers in my french late armies after they proved themselves against the mongols. Sure I always keep some chivalric cav, lots of DFK and some DNK, and the rest arbusquiers/scots guard, but the voulgiers in spearwall set in front of Trebs/cannon on a hill were always useful for me. I certainly found them more durable than the french late city pikes at any rate.

Also, I have had Voulgiers stand up to an elephant charge long enough for my DNK's to flank charge in, although my general was close behind the spearwall.

True, but then again, voulgiers aren't that stylish to begin with. Now, Pikemen, they have feathered berets and puffy pants and stuff. Always a plus in Jean-Paul Gaultier's army. Plus they do the "hold and stay alive until cav can charge their backs" thing better than voulgiers too (well, they do when you micro them or at least turn guard mode and spearwall off after the enemy charge is over), so... not much of a dilemma.

[Henry707]

In terms of outfits, those fluffy trousers & berries are a sure-fire hit with both the ladies & the gentlemen, depending which way les garcons swings!

Henri

[DVX BELLORVM]

Plus they do the "hold and stay alive until cav can charge their backs" thing better than voulgiers too (well, they do when you micro them or at least turn guard mode and spearwall off after the enemy charge is over)

Aren't you supposed to leave spearwall on, and turn the guard off ?

[moonshiner57]

Ah, such wisdom from such distinguished Messieurs! Merci to all - I have learned much... mostly, that there are other gentlemen who value a dashing look over brutish efficiency!

Seriously - I let my men Guard + Spearwall on the charge and then turned Guard off... it worked wonders. While the fish-reeking Portugese were struggling with the way my men suddenly divulged their skill with the voulge, my cavalry had annihilated theirs, trounced their archers, captured their artillery and finally charged the enemy line from behind. It seems Voulgiers can do just what I want them to - stand there and take it while buying time for the cavalry.

So they will from now on form the main battle line and replace the Armored Sergeants, two of which I will keep for now to deal with flanking enemy cavalry. The various Dismounted Knights are not available in numbers yet and they are a tad too expensive to be line infantry - maybe they will see more use later.

And on the most important matter of style: I like Les Voulgiers a lot more than the fancy Pikemen, they look a lot more businesslike. Plus, they are oh so unique, and when you're French that's all that counts! Every Hans, Fritz and Otto can carry a pike or a halberd - but sporting a voulge on the battlefield will ensure much swooning of the Fräuleins afterwards!

"Grete - have you seen the new voulges from Paris?! They're everywhere this season... oh how I wish Hans had one too... and knew how to use it!"

So - marchez onward, les voulgiers! Pour l'escargots!

[Kobal2fr]

Aren't you supposed to leave spearwall on, and turn the guard off ?

Nope, spearwall is to take the charge only, if you leave it on afterwards they don't fight at all and just...well, stay in a wall, looking like idiots, until some guys squeeze in between the pikes and make them whip out their butter knives. Then they do fight. For about 3 seconds. Then they're dead .
When you turn spearwall off, they poke-poke-poke a lot better. When they get the butter knives out, as they're wont to do at some point anyway, turn it on and back off, does the trick most of the time.

@Moonshiner : eh, true .

[moonshiner57]

When they get the butter knives out

Ah, but voulgiers don't have butter knives, they slice les baguettes with the voulge only. I found that they do very well with Spearwall on, able to hold sword infantry while inflicting heavy losses.

Out of curiosity I ran a completely unscientific test.... a unit of Voulgiers with 2 armor upgrades against plain Dismounted Feudal Knights. Left Guard Mode and Spearwall on during the knights charge, then turned Guard Mode off. Voulgiers left with 57 out of 120, DFK left with 29 out of 120 - then the knights ran. Not sure what lesson to extract here but I suspect something about the importance of armour upgrades :)

Now if I could just get my hands on some Aventuriers in the campaign...

[Kobal2fr]

Yup, I found out too after running some tests for this post (yeah, I have copious free time, and I'm obsessive) : voulgiers (and I suppose halberdiers too, by extension) don't work the same as pikemen, probably because their secondary attack is the same as their primary, so they aren't that affected by breaks in the formation and get the benefits of the spearwall at all times. Well, that's my best guess, at any rate.

In fact, from tests against DCKs, they actually do a lot better when they remain in spearwall, guard off.

With spearwall on : the charge kills off about 10 voulgiers, no knights, then the numbers even out and the knights usually lose in the end with half the voulgiers still alive.
With spearwall turned off after the impact : the voulgiers all die doublequick.

BTW, the tests were done with Kingdoms and RetroFit mod, so your mileage may vary, but I have a new respect for voulgiers/halberds in this incarnation of MTW2.

[Grog]

Another factor to consider for voulgiers is they have cheap upkeep (150 iirc?) and are great for garrison work in castles late game.

I was initially wary of training voulgiers as their paper stats looked 'weak' for the cost, but after various use in battles they seem to punch above their wieght.

I was surprised at the results above vs the knights; like other posters above I have tended to use voulgiers as a more defensive unit in spearwall to protect my arbusqiuers/siege/cannon units.

[Rhedd]

This is very informative, but how do you all cope with the fact that they walk slower than... well, than anything I can think of?

That insanely slow walking speed is what keeps both voulgiers and halberdiers out of my field armies, although I'd love to use both.

[TevashSzat]

Thats why muskets + pikes were such a good combo in armies then. The pikemen served as a wall so the musketeers could fire freely and then retreat behind the spearwall should anyone try to charge them. Get enough pikemen to have a half decent wall and then have like 1/3 to 1/2 of your army be top notch archers and you'll see why

[TheLastPrivate]

For voulgier speed problems you can turn off spearwall and they'll run/walk like any other infantry (not as fast as natives but fast enough)

However you gotta be careful as this may compromise unit cohesion.

[Rhedd]

For voulgier speed problems you can turn off spearwall and they'll run/walk like any other infantry (not as fast as natives but fast enough)

However you gotta be careful as this may compromise unit cohesion.

Er, no they don't.

With guard and shield wall off, they do run at a normal pace (after a huuuge pause, to get into "running mode"), but they still walk at about half the pace of standard infantry, such as spearmen.

I just can't deal with this, since it means that you can't march an army in formation without your halberdiers/voulgiers being left way behind, leaving weaknesses in your line.

That and I can't deal with it simply because it makes no sense. Do halberds come with free, complimentary lead underwear, or something? ^_^

Just forget about them being able to react to a need to change frontage.

It's a shame, because I really love polearms.

[WhiskeyGhost]

Er, no they don't.

With guard and shield wall off, they do run at a normal pace (after a huuuge pause, to get into "running mode"), but they still walk at about half the pace of standard infantry, such as spearmen.

I just can't deal with this, since it means that you can't march an army in formation without your halberdiers/voulgiers being left way behind, leaving weaknesses in your line.

That and I can't deal with it simply because it makes no sense. Do halberds come with free, complimentary lead underwear, or something? ^_^

Just forget about them being able to react to a need to change frontage.

It's a shame, because I really love polearms.

i'm just gonna assume that carrying a giant 2 handed weapon should weigh a bit, and make it hard to run. I've tried running with a Billhook, before, and it wasn't even remotely pleasant

[Rhedd]

Hopefully, though, walking with one wouldn't give you too much trouble. ^_^

Funny thing is, in the game they run fine. It's walking they have the problem with.

[WhiskeyGhost]

Hopefully, though, walking with one wouldn't give you too much trouble. ^_^

Funny thing is, in the game they run fine. It's walking they have the problem with.

yeah, but you gotta realize, if your carrying something large and bulky over a long distance, your gonna need to pace yourself properly, otherwise your useless if you were marching too fast or too far while overloaded. You could walk fast, sure, but you'd tire out before reaching your destination (in the same way running does, only it would take longer). The problem with the game mechanics is theres only a walk/run option, and not a forced march kind of option where they slowly lose stamina but don't move like snails

[Rhedd]

I'm starting to feel argumentative, but I suppose this "pacing yourself" thing doesn't apply to men in mail hauberks, carrying kite shields and six feet of spear, or men in full plate marching along with two-handed swords over their shoulders?

How about soldiers carrying those very billhooks you mentioned? They walk at a perfectly average speed.

Any way you look at it, singling out halberdiers and voulgiers as exceptionally slow-moving units is devoid of logic.

[WhiskeyGhost]

I'm starting to feel argumentative, but I suppose this "pacing yourself" thing doesn't apply to men in mail hauberks, carrying kite shields and six feet of spear, or men in full plate marching along with two-handed swords over their shoulders?

How about soldiers carrying those very billhooks you mentioned? They walk at a perfectly average speed.

Any way you look at it, singling out halberdiers and voulgiers as exceptionally slow-moving units is devoid of logic.

duly noted, and i concur with that assessment. I suppose it was lowered so it makes it harder for you to place spearwalls quickly within a changing battlefield. I could just imagine having a spearwall unit moving to my exposed flank quickly to put up a wall just in time to prevent an enemy charge for decimating my front lines

[Rhedd]

Yep.

Don't mind me. I'm just complaining because it's one of the few things I can't mod to my liking. ^_^

[Czar Alexsandr]

Bonjour Mon Amis!

I've ran quite a few tests on the Voulgier and found it to work like others had said. Like Kobal I observed that the Voulgeir's suffered high initial losses but ended up winning in the end. When in spearwall formation that is. I assume the fact is when you stand shoulder to shoulder with a fellow man in armour weilding a fearsome and stylish Voulge you can defeat a much more expensive and dangerous foe. (Eg. DFK etc.) I'd say they're much better against infantry then Armoured Sergeants but cavalry is another issue. For the line of battle though, the Voulgier is a excelent soldier. For anti-armour and higher attack the French Dismounted Noble Knights will be better but in my experience get killed quicker. Les Voulgier's are much more durable, very resilient fellows. I assume if you have swords, voulge, spear, Adventieurs or Scot's guard, and the famous French cavalry though you'd need fear no army. Vie le France.

[Meldarion]

Before the latest patch these guys were not to be under-estimated. Afterwards is a different story, I haven't found them to be highly successful and they are lacking in versatility.

[Ciaran]

duly noted, and i concur with that assessment. I suppose it was lowered so it makes it harder for you to place spearwalls quickly within a changing battlefield. I could just imagine having a spearwall unit moving to my exposed flank quickly to put up a wall just in time to prevent an enemy charge for decimating my front lines

Well, you can do that. Just use pikes, as mentioned, they walk at normal pace.

But I agree it does not make sense.