Voulgiers, Guard Mode and Spearwall - how to use it?

**Kobal2fr** · 10-22-2007, 19:24

I have to agree on this - voulgiers seem to be weak halberdiers, and seeing that regular halberdiers aren't that great anyway...
Besides, France has the best horses there are. And basically, that's all they need : anything that has "spear" or "pike" in their name, you let the footknights and/or Xbows butcher. Anything else, you charge right through with your horses. It's no bug that France has both Noble Knights and Chivalric Knights with the same stats : you have twice more cav than anyone else. Factor in order knights (templars/hospitalers), and you can pretty much steamroll any army, be it on foot, on horse or with bows. See my sig for further details :)

Voulgiers can theoretically hold a horsecharge if in spear wall, but then again so can your own cav...

**Grog** · 10-22-2007, 21:27

Ah but you forget Kobal, there is always a place for style over efficiency!

Seriously though, I usually found a place for voulgiers in my french late armies after they proved themselves against the mongols. Sure I always keep some chivalric cav, lots of DFK and some DNK, and the rest arbusquiers/scots guard, but the voulgiers in spearwall set in front of Trebs/cannon on a hill were always useful for me. I certainly found them more durable than the french late city pikes at any rate.

Also, I have had Voulgiers stand up to an elephant charge long enough for my DNK's to flank charge in, although my general was close behind the spearwall.

**Kobal2fr** · 10-23-2007, 05:48

Originally Posted by Grog

Ah but you forget Kobal, there is always a place for style over efficiency!

Seriously though, I usually found a place for voulgiers in my french late armies after they proved themselves against the mongols. Sure I always keep some chivalric cav, lots of DFK and some DNK, and the rest arbusquiers/scots guard, but the voulgiers in spearwall set in front of Trebs/cannon on a hill were always useful for me. I certainly found them more durable than the french late city pikes at any rate.

Also, I have had Voulgiers stand up to an elephant charge long enough for my DNK's to flank charge in, although my general was close behind the spearwall.

True, but then again, voulgiers aren't that stylish to begin with. Now, Pikemen, they have feathered berets and puffy pants and stuff. Always a plus in Jean-Paul Gaultier's army. Plus they do the "hold and stay alive until cav can charge their backs" thing better than voulgiers too (well, they do when you micro them or at least turn guard mode and spearwall off after the enemy charge is over), so... not much of a dilemma.

**Henry707** · 10-23-2007, 08:36

In terms of outfits, those fluffy trousers & berries are a sure-fire hit with both the ladies & the gentlemen, depending which way les garcons swings!

Henri

**moonshiner57** · 10-23-2007, 10:30

Ah, such wisdom from such distinguished Messieurs! Merci to all - I have learned much... mostly, that there are other gentlemen who value a dashing look over brutish efficiency!

Seriously - I let my men Guard + Spearwall on the charge and then turned Guard off... it worked wonders. While the fish-reeking Portugese were struggling with the way my men suddenly divulged their skill with the voulge, my cavalry had annihilated theirs, trounced their archers, captured their artillery and finally charged the enemy line from behind. It seems Voulgiers can do just what I want them to - stand there and take it while buying time for the cavalry.

So they will from now on form the main battle line and replace the Armored Sergeants, two of which I will keep for now to deal with flanking enemy cavalry. The various Dismounted Knights are not available in numbers yet and they are a tad too expensive to be line infantry - maybe they will see more use later.

And on the most important matter of style: I like Les Voulgiers a lot more than the fancy Pikemen, they look a lot more businesslike. Plus, they are oh so unique, and when you're French that's all that counts! Every Hans, Fritz and Otto can carry a pike or a halberd - but sporting a voulge on the battlefield will ensure much swooning of the Fräuleins afterwards!

"Grete - have you seen the new voulges from Paris?! They're everywhere this season... oh how I wish Hans had one too... and knew how to use it!"

So - marchez onward, les voulgiers! Pour l'escargots!

**DVX BELLORVM** · 10-23-2007, 10:16

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Plus they do the "hold and stay alive until cav can charge their backs" thing better than voulgiers too (well, they do when you micro them or at least turn guard mode and spearwall off after the enemy charge is over)

Aren't you supposed to leave spearwall on, and turn the guard off ?

**Kobal2fr** · 10-23-2007, 11:05

Originally Posted by DVX BELLORVM

Aren't you supposed to leave spearwall on, and turn the guard off ?

Nope, spearwall is to take the charge only, if you leave it on afterwards they don't fight at all and just...well, stay in a wall, looking like idiots, until some guys squeeze in between the pikes and make them whip out their butter knives. Then they do fight. For about 3 seconds. Then they're dead

.
When you turn spearwall off, they poke-poke-poke a lot better. When they get the butter knives out, as they're wont to do at some point anyway, turn it on and back off, does the trick most of the time.

@Moonshiner : eh, true

.

**moonshiner57** · 10-23-2007, 11:17

When they get the butter knives out

Ah, but voulgiers don't have butter knives, they slice les baguettes with the voulge only. I found that they do very well with Spearwall on, able to hold sword infantry while inflicting heavy losses.

Out of curiosity I ran a completely unscientific test.... a unit of Voulgiers with 2 armor upgrades against plain Dismounted Feudal Knights. Left Guard Mode and Spearwall on during the knights charge, then turned Guard Mode off. Voulgiers left with 57 out of 120, DFK left with 29 out of 120 - then the knights ran. Not sure what lesson to extract here but I suspect something about the importance of armour upgrades :)

Now if I could just get my hands on some Aventuriers in the campaign...

**Kobal2fr** · 10-23-2007, 18:03

Yup, I found out too after running some tests for this post (yeah, I have copious free time, and I'm obsessive) : voulgiers (and I suppose halberdiers too, by extension) don't work the same as pikemen, probably because their secondary attack is the same as their primary, so they aren't that affected by breaks in the formation and get the benefits of the spearwall at all times. Well, that's my best guess, at any rate.

In fact, from tests against DCKs, they actually do a lot better when they remain in spearwall, guard off.

With spearwall on : the charge kills off about 10 voulgiers, no knights, then the numbers even out and the knights usually lose in the end with half the voulgiers still alive.
With spearwall turned off after the impact : the voulgiers all die doublequick.

BTW, the tests were done with Kingdoms and RetroFit mod, so your mileage may vary, but I have a new respect for voulgiers/halberds in this incarnation of MTW2.