Asia ton Barbaron disscusion thread

[Bootsiuv]

Good work you guys are doing.

[Admetos]

Thanks Bootsiuv.

[CaesarAugustus]

Judst wondering, is ethiopia really preferable to galatia as a faction? As we've heard the developers of EB say many times, the only two units that an ethiopian faction would have are archers and spearmen. A barbarian faction in Asia Minor, however, provides a much more diverse and, yes, exotic option, and they have had much more of an impact than the Ethiopians ever did, especially with Africa in the little left corner of the map.

[Pharnakes]

Ok, this was the reasoning behind galatians getting kicked:

1. They take a much needed culture slot

2. They were not especialy prominent (and ethiopia is still not finnal, more of a place holder, and something to split ptolie attentions, other wise , with the selucid empire the mess it is they will very rapidly over expand)

3. They never expanded, and never even consolidated they're own teritory, if included they would have to have nothing but type 4 govs, since in history they jsut sat on top of thei lands, never trully rulled them, just raidd and extracted tribute.

4. This mod is asia focused, not asia minor.

5. Asia Minor is already over crowded, we need to give the faction there room to expand to a stable power base with which to opose the Ptolies and the Seleukids, once they reorganise themselves. If we included Galatia, then one of either Galatia, Pergamon or Pontus will be dead within 15 or so years, which seems a bit of a waste IMHO. As historicaly it was the Attilids and Pontus who survied, it is they who make it into the game. If we could have another 50+ provinces, then maybe we would be able to include them. As it is...nope.


Ohh, and thanks for your continuing support Bootsiuv

[CaesarAugustus]

3. They never expanded, and never even consolidated they're own teritory, if included they would have to have nothing but type 4 govs, since in history they jsut sat on top of thei lands, never trully rulled them, just raidd and extracted tribute.

A very good point, I had not though of that. I am also glad to hear that ethiopia is (maybe) just a placeholder, but I don't really think they will help very much in stopping rapid Ptolemy expansion, unfortunately.

[Pharnakes]

Current thinkign suggests switching them for Kyrene.

[Malik of Sindh]

Yup,I did this evil deed.Ethiopia is replaced by Cyrenaica(Omgwtfyayomg!!!!!1111!oneone11!elevnteen!!11),because it was more important han ethiopia.And guess what?Galatians aren't in and won't be.

[russia almighty]

...Even though there not in doesn't Ethiopia have a decent AOR selection ? Hell it seems more varied then what Nubia would have had .

[Malik of Sindh]

Like i said,my deed is acomplished,no more ethiopia,its not coming back,just like galatia(unless in admetos minimod).

[KuKulzA]

Galations are out? better to yank out the 2 Greeks, and keep Galatians...

[Admetos]

Greeks are already out, and one of the faction slots had been used. The other is being kept until beta testing and will be used wherever it is needed (ie. balancing).

The Galatians will be included in an offical add-on though.

[Leão magno]

Bosphoros would add a real new flavour to your inteded mod! stick wih Bosphoros

[keravnos]

This is a FANTASTIC job you are doing, I don't know how I didn't notice this before...

What? No playable IndoGreeks...

It is your mod ofcourse, but may I ask why?
-I understand if you consider them emerging faction, they were, but wouldn't the best way to approach it be the following?

At sometime when Baktria has some Indian holdings a "pop-up" comes up saying that a civil war has erupted and asks you to choose between becoming an IG or continue on as Baktrian.

How does that sound?

[Malik of Sindh]

I think its impossible to change from one faction to another in the middle of a campaing?Not in RTW.Its possible in M2TW IIRC.If you choose side,how would this work?Just a territory change?

[Pharnakes]

This is a FANTASTIC job you are doing, I don't know how I didn't notice this before...

What? No playable IndoGreeks...

It is your mod ofcourse, but may I ask why?
-I understand if you consider them emerging faction, they were, but wouldn't the best way to approach it be the following?

At sometime when Baktria has some Indian holdings a "pop-up" comes up saying that a civil war has erupted and asks you to choose between becoming an IG or continue on as Baktrian.

How does that sound?

I know, I feel your pain Keravnos, but the other team members won't have any of it, no idea why. My idea has always been to have two Baktrias, one of which reforms to become indo greekish.

I think I se what you are getting at, rather like the civil wars in MTW, yes? But is such a thing even posible in RTW, would be perfect if it is?

Ohh, and Kervanos, please please please, use all of your influnce as an eb member to persuade my team mates that we can't have an indain mod without playable indo greeks

I'm begging you, you are my only hope now.

[Malik of Sindh]

I really want playable Indo-Greeks too,but this wouldn't be historicaly accurate,right?

[Kahju]

This is an interesting project, although it disappoints me that you aren't going to include China or Gojoseon. Of course, including China would effectively mean that you would have to include quite a few more or less identical Chinese factions...

Speaking of Indo-Greeks, there is a question I'd like to ask. What was the Indo-Greek kingdom called, or what would it be called in EB or AtB? Indo-Greek kingdom sounds like a modern scholarly name to me, not something they would have actually called themselves.

[keravnos]

I really want playable Indo-Greeks too,but this wouldn't be historicaly accurate,right?

Right after Antiochos 3 passed through India in 206 BCE, Baktria began its attack at Maurya holdings in India.
-Demetrios managed to drive through to achieve that. The death of the last Maurya and the disintegration that Sungas caused, helped him achieve that.

Historically the IG kingdom starts at approx. 200 BCE. At 186 BCE, we have the time of the Yavana calendar (with makedonian names for its months) with a core area around modern Punjab (pentapotamia) and reaching as far down as Ujain ( a Ujain sunclock has been found in Alexandria Oxiane - probably second in importance capital of the Baktrian kingdom), and west in Mathura. (A Kalinga king, in a Rock edict has been chronologically dated at 162 BCE boasts of sending Demetrios 2 "back to Mathura").

I respect the decisions of the team here. Totally. The only way I can see IG being included is via some kind of "civil war" as I mentioned before. Otherwise, Yuehzi should also be included, (Han would be too out of map to be able to include).

If historicity is the problem, you can't include them. IF, later on you can have a version of AtB that starts in 186 BCE or so, then of course. At 140 or 135, IndoGreeks under Menandros had all present day Pakistan, all of present day India and conquered the Ganges up to present day Bangladesh.

Indeed, Indo-Greeks is a present day "discovery" partially to make the connection to Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians and the like.

As there are coins of them called "Basileos Menandrou" or Saviour King and the like, I am inclined to go with "Basileio tes Indias" or "Kingdom of India" for their title.

If a Mauryan state exists, then there isn't possibly a room for them. The only way for them to exist is if it happens as it did in RL, Baktria occupies the NW and then all Western part of India which it later becomes independent and expands on its own.

Can something like that work? If so, you can have IG ingame. No other way, either historical or doable.

Now, it has been suggested by a Greek Hindu scholar (currently residing in Varanasi, India and author of a greak book on IG) that all greeks in that area (be it Baktria or India) be called IndoGreeks and be done with it, as historically that area of present day Afghanistan was considered a part of India, see...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../EpicIndia.jpg

...but I think that is not the case. They were two separate kingdoms, that the second originated from the first much like UK-US, but IG became very different in the years it existed.

[Admetos]

Um, Pharnakes, I've always wanted playable Indo-Greeks...

[Os-Q]

Assuming you're going to give Arabia more provinces. How about a "Bedouin" eastern desert-nomad faction. That might keep Arabia from being a Saban, "Grey Death" or "Yellow Plague" playground, give the Saban player another trading partner/contender for local domination, possibly give an excuse to include camels AND...
it would be cool.

[Pharnakes]

Sorry, but I really don't think that is very likely.


On the indo greeks, my first idea was to give Baktria access to reforms that would kick in when they take most of india.

These reforms would do various things:

1. Change the homeland and expansionist reforms, Baktria and Sogidian would become alliances only, so you would be able to keep them, but they would never realy be part of your empire.

2. Change the religous buildings avalible, to Budhism, and maybe a few other options, but whereas before budhism (as it is now for baktria) would be a secondary religon, offering less bonuses than perso-hellenic cults, budhism would now become the dominant religon, offering the best bonuses. I know next to nothing on the Indo greeks (or Basileio tes Indias as I suppose we should call them now) although I hope to change that this weekend, but I would imagine that there would be other secondary religons we would maybe included as well.

3. Lastly of course, the miltary, whatever is appropriated, IDK.

[russia almighty]

A question .



How many actual greeks do you guys figure where in Baktria ? Cause more and more it seems like there was a metric ****ton hanging out on the far side of the world .

[KuKulzA]

by the way, will this require Barbarian Invasion?

A question .



How many actual greeks do you guys figure where in Baktria ? Cause more and more it seems like there was a metric ****ton hanging out on the far side of the world .

they were probably a significant minority... considering they were once part of Alexander's conquests.... but they're definitely a minority... but most were probably more on the wealthier/influential side than the native peoples

[Malik of Sindh]

Idea scraped,look downwards for abetter one.


A for Admetos,so he makes me Indo-Greek sig.

[Pharnakes]

Ok, my take:

There should be two Baktrias from the start, both "satrapies" of te Seleukids, one called Baktria and one called indo greeks. Then when IGs conquer india, they have a reform that makes them truely IG. The other, proper Baktria just stays as it is.

[Admetos]

My idea, is to only have the one Baktian faction from the start. Once Bakria has reached certain objectives, the player will have the choice to either stay Greek, or reform to Indo-Greek by building a certain building that will grant it access to a seperate building tree. So its almost like the Hayasdan reforms at the moment.

[Pharnakes]

My latest:

Factions:

Seleukids : Romans_Brutti

Baktria : Romans_senate

Indo greeks : Romans_Julii

Ok, with this idea they all start out allied ect, as normal, then, one of three things will happen:

1. (power to the seleukids) The Selukids will restore their empire to a sufficent extent that they can now concentrate on teaching the semi anoutoums satrapies a lesson in obedience. This will be triggered by the seleukids taking all the provs of their empire, plus having a certain treasury level. The allaince will split in two : baktria and indo greek against seleucids, as Baktria is senate, indo greeks will support them.

2. (power to the Baktrians) They take a certain amount of land, they feel they now have enought power to declare their independence. This will be triggered again by land and treasury. Result Baktria goes to war with the Seleukids, Indo greeks support them in their own bid for independence (as Baktria is senate)

3. (power to the indo greeks) They take India, and no longer feel that they are a part of the Seleukid hegemony, again triggered by land and treasury. Result War against the Baktrians, the Seleukids support Baktria as a (relaitivley) loyal strapy, due to the fact that baktria is the senate.



Basics will edit in more details in a minute.

[Malik of Sindh]

oops,ignore.

[CaesarAugustus]

Wow, you guys are having some really great ideas so far! An indo-greek faction is definently a must for an EB with the Indian subcontinent, I'm glad to see that it can work while being historically accurate at the start of the game, too.

Balloons for everyone!!

[Admetos]

Ok guys, we've got two sigs for you to use. Here they are:

Maurya:


Indo-Greeks


There'll be more on the way soon.

EDIT: You can also find the sigs in the first post.