Papal state allying with the crusade target?

**SeekerDK** · 10-24-2007, 13:49

Here is the thing. I allied with the papal state, which is usually a wise decision, giving I'm a good catholic (England) and want to stay on the good lords best side. And as a peaceful and faithful christian I obey the popes command to murder infide... Ehhmm... save christian holiness from non-believers. The papal state choices the peaceful solution and begin diplomacy with the Turks.

Ok, ok, I'm not saying that Turks can't be friends with the Papal State but "for churchs sake", why does the papal state choice to ally with the holders of the crusade target, AFTER I have already besieged it and not call of the crusade? My Crusade target is now my allies ally and my crusade army is now stuck right outside Antioch and I dare not move him of fear of mass desertion.

I think this might even qualify as a bug, as there is a trigger in place that aborts a crusade (seen it in used on Ex-comm crusade-target factions that have been recounciled) but don't know if this is because the trigger simply applies to Islam faction or it's a actually bug (might have been that Antioch was rebel when crusade was called but turned Turkish before the alliance).

On one side I would like the issue fixed (pope death didn't do it, it was the first crusade in-game and still status-quo at turn 70). I now have an (outdated) army on hold doing nothing for the last 40 turns, countless Ex-comms and recounciled'ings and yet no new crusades and a would-be-good general spawned from man-of-the-hour right before to the crusade being called but now a 40-year old virgin with some interesting traits and retinues, but very little command experience.

On the other hand, I think the situation is so hysterically funny, that I would almost like it to continue and hope for a natural break (Antioch being taken by someone else, alliance breaking or Turks attacking me). But still it is a pain, that I can't use crusades to punish Europeans that have crossed the church (pun intended :).

Any surgestions?

(I mean for the post to be sarcastic and humorous to read, I apologies if anyone sees it different)

**Sir Clive Sinclair** · 10-24-2007, 13:54

Can't help with your specific issue, but sounds similar to the dumb AI when trying to buy papal votes.

They refuse your cash, then vote for you anyway.

**TheLastPrivate** · 10-24-2007, 16:29

Don't join the crusade, pay the pope some cash, and just move on while believing that there was some deadly conspiracy involving your rivals and the pope :D

**SeekerDK** · 10-24-2007, 19:04

Originally Posted by TheLastPrivate

Don't join the crusade, pay the pope some cash, and just move on while believing that there was some deadly conspiracy involving your rivals and the pope :D

Well that doesn't really solve the problem of no new crusades or that of the army already standing by in Antioch-region. As I said, it been like this for approximately 40 turns and it's starting to ....

.

... and then some.

Only fast way out I found was to attack (kill the papal alliance), finish the crusade and then crawl back begging for forgiveness. And I'm not that huge on begging (again).

**Zpartan** · 10-25-2007, 00:19

Maybe being a good catholic means taking the reputation hit and continue the seige. Pope wants to look nice so he allied with them he still wants you to kill them, he's just smarter than youuu think! Yea I have no idea hasn't hapenned to me.

**SeekerDK** · 10-25-2007, 00:39

Originally Posted by Zpartan

Maybe being a good catholic means taking the reputation hit and continue the seige. Pope wants to look nice so he allied with them he still wants you to kill them, he's just smarter than youuu think! Yea I have no idea hasn't hapenned to me.

On the serious side, I think your giving the AI a bit to much tactical credit.
But on the historical side, you are of cause right :)

The Siege broke automatically when the papal state allied (hostilities automatically seizes between allies' allies), but it's kind of a pain that I have to re-ally with the Papal State after worth. Cost me a bundle the first time.

**TevashSzat** · 10-25-2007, 01:45

I'd just break the alliance and take the city since the odds are that you're going to sack it meaning you suddenly get a boatload of money that you can use to bribe the pope again

**PseRamesses** · 10-25-2007, 10:51

SeekerDK,
Are you still laying seige on the crusade target? If so just wait until the seige either will end or they sally. If they sally, which they do 9 out of 10 times, THEY are counted as the agressors and the Pope will most likely break the alliance with them.

**SeekerDK** · 10-25-2007, 11:11

PseRamesses:
No, the siege broke when the alliance was forged (hostilities automatically seizes between allies' allies). Engaging the siege again would result in hostilities and the alliance breaking. I've been doing my best to hinder their movement, thus forcing them to attack, but so far, no luck (now counting 50+ turns where the army hasn't moved).

Xdeathfire:
I guess that is my last possibility, but I would assume that re-allying would be a problem, seeing as I would be at war with one of their allies.

**ReiseReise** · 10-25-2007, 13:43

You have 3 choices as I see it.
1. Attack target. I'm not sure about M2, but IIRC in Rome allies got a choice which ally to side with when one attacked the other. The Pope might chose you because you are his religion. Even if this is not the case, your rating with him might not go down very much because, again, your are his religion, and it shouldn't be too hard to get the alliance back.
2. Not sure if this will work. Move 2-3 cheap units of the army to siege another nearby Turkish city that hopefully has a large garrison. Assuming you don't lose them all to desertion, the Turks might sally out from the 2nd city since they outnumber you, thereby breaking their alliance. If they don't sally out, hire some more mercs, reinforce both armies, and revert to option 1, except you'll take 2 cities instead of 1
3. Be a good Catholic and bring your army home. You said they were outdated, who cares if you lose them? Again I'm not certain because i've never abandoned a Crusade, but I don't think your coveted general will desert. He will arrive home without his army, but you will have him.

Maybe someone can tell me if my assumptions are correct.

**SeekerDK** · 10-25-2007, 14:04

Originally Posted by ReiseReise

You have 3 choices as I see it.
1. Attack target. I'm not sure about M2, but IIRC in Rome allies got a choice which ally to side with when one attacked the other.

Well, I found out when two of my allies started fighting that the aggressors alliance shatters. IIRC I also get a warning that the Papal alliance will shatter if I lay siege, but have to check that again.

Originally Posted by ReiseReise

2. Not sure if this will work. Move 2-3 cheap units of the army to siege another nearby Turkish city that hopefully has a large garrison.

Same problem as in 1. If I lay siege, I'm the aggressor. It's not like the popes "cease hostilities" where you can maintain the siege, but not attack.

Originally Posted by ReiseReise

3. Be a good Catholic and bring your army home. You said they were outdated, who cares if you lose them?

Well. As it doesn't cost me anything (free upkeep) and the general is expendable, I might as well stay put. Its always nice to have a army standing by in the holy land if circumstances should change.

Canceling will decrease traits and won't change the main annoyance of no new crusades. I think I remember other factions also joined the crusade, but so far I haven't seen them, so I assume they abandoned the cause.

**SeekerDK** · 10-26-2007, 15:44

Follow-up:

OK, so I gave heck to it all and attacked the crusade target. Sure enough, the alliance with the Papal state shattered as soon as I started the Siege. Kinda expected, but what I didn't expect was that BOTH relations to the pope and the Papal State suffered immensely by this (both of them jumping 4-5 points in a single action).

Next round I took the target and got a measly 1 point of pope-favor but still, both the pope and the Papal State are very PO'ed at me.

So now I have a 47yo general (was 20'ish when he started the crusade - thou he now has some interesting traits and big time chivalry and command) and some high-experienced peasant archers and crusade mercs. Turks hate me, pope hates me and Papal State hates me, but I'll be looking forward to the 2nd crusade (now turn 85, so its about freaking time :)

Next step is to pump the Papal State with some regular tributes and see if I can't get'em to take me in again.