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Thread: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    teambio | 17 Jun 2007 | Steve O

    Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Rep. Ronald Paul has been getting kudos left, right and center for his anti-war stance but lets not forget his overall libertarian stance on most issues.

    On Friday, Rep. Paul introduced H.R. 2755 To abolish the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal reserve banks, to repeal the Federal Reserve Act, and for other purposes. The text of this bill is not yet available on-line but Rep.

    Ron Paul 0wnz the Federal Reserve
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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    OK. Let me admit that I generally spend my time under a damn rock. Now, having said this, tell me: is this Ron Paul stuff a joke? I mean come on! The guy obviously is just kidding around. Abolish the IRS? Return to the gold standard? Oh! Let's have the common US citizen pay 3.00USD an hour to breath clean air since government regulations have been done away with! Let's raze our wilderness for commercial benefit.

    I ask plainly: Is Ron Paul an international in-joke whose source I missed while doing something I personally found constructive?

    EDIT: Ron Paul.
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    Member Member ZombieFriedNuts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    why
    Make Beer Not War

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieFriedNuts
    why
    Because the FED is making your dollar less worth, blah blah blah blah.

    Yes, the gold standard. No IRS, No Federal Reserve. Brilliant.

    Remember guys, this is all unconstitutional. We need to return to the good old days of 1700s.

    I don't usually do this but...



    At Ron Paul and these awful ideas.



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    Member Member ZombieFriedNuts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Ok I just watched the video I think that he just want more transparency from the dudes who have your money
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Yes, the gold standard. No IRS, No Federal Reserve. Brilliant.

    Remember guys, this is all unconstitutional.
    Yes it is and for very good reason. In fact its the main reason we had a revolution. You have all been duped


    Lets start with printing money. Its forbidden by the constitution. Only the minting of gold and silver coins can be used to pay debts.



    Now the Fed. Only congress has the power to coin money and regulate the value there of. What is a private banking cartel doing running it?


    Next income tax. Its unconstitutional to place a direct tax on the people of the US without apportionment .


    Now you may think this is all a big joke but I take it very seriously. The Fed is why you have to pay income tax.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Last edited by Csargo; 10-24-2007 at 23:57.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    I'm all for stopping the government from printing money to pay its debts, but even Dr. Paul has to know this isn't going to work. Grand, giant leaps is not what legislation's about. It's all about incrementalism, slowly stripping the government of power and then one day the dems wake up and find they can't levy income taxes on people. Bwahaha!

    CR
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieFriedNuts
    Ok I just watched the video I think that he just want more transparency from the dudes who have your money
    So have I.

    To be honest, I'm to tired right now to get into indepth research to debunk his claims, but most of what he said is pure garbage.

    Congress does have the power to create a central bank (which, in reality, is made up of many privately owned regional banks. It isn't one big bank)

    The central bank doesn't answer to Congress. It was made that way to be partisan free which was a good idea to separate monetary policy from fiscal policy. It doesn't have to tell Congress a damn thing.

    Paul talks about the fiat system causing inflation. Inflation would happen one way or the other, with or without a fiat system.

    The idea of the federal reserve is keep the economy in relative check trying to avoid the massive busts that usually occur within a free market economy.

    You think the busts are bad now? Imagine no federal reserve and our currency was backed by gold. When ever the price of gold goes up/down the economy fluctuates like crazy. Not really a good idea. There is a reason why no one uses the gold standard anymore and most, if not all countries, have a central bank.



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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Yes it is and for very good reason. In fact its the main reason we had a revolution. You have all been duped
    You are just as bad as the extreme left. It's pretty good laugh.

    Lets start with printing money. Its forbidden by the constitution. Only the minting of gold and silver coins can be used to pay debts.
    Show me. If it is obviously unconstitutional why hasn't our judiciary system struck it down or atleast had a serious debate about it?

    Now the Fed. Only congress has the power to coin money and regulate the value there of. What is a private banking cartel doing running it?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act

    Congress granted them the power.

    Next income tax. Its unconstitutional to place a direct tax on the people of the US without apportionment .
    Again, show me.

    Now you may think this is all a big joke but I take it very seriously. The Fed is why you have to pay income tax.
    I thought roads, a military, police, fire, etc was the reason I had to pay an income tax. Opps.

    Yes, I do this as a huge joke.



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    Prince of Maldonia Member Toby and Kiki Champion, Goo Slasher Champion, Frogger Champion woad&fangs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Come on Orkeny, we all know that the constitution and the bill of rights is a big fat scam.

    1st Amendment: *quietly suppresses his laughter*

    2nd Amendment: Intent was to give the US citizens away to fight the government if it becomes corrupt and to give them the ability to form a militia in times of war. Last I checked, I may be a great shot with my deer rifle but it ain't going to stand up to machine guns and tanks. The Gov should therefore get rid of the machine gun ban and offer tanks, Apache helicopters and aircraft carriers for sale.
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    but also with fear, for whom among them has the strength to contend with such a paragon of avian virtue? In such a manner is the princely
    chicken's dominion maintained. ~Machiavelli

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    AMENDMENT XVI

    Passed by Congress July 2, 1909. Ratified February 3, 1913.

    Note: Article I, section 9, of the Constitution was modified by amendment 16.

    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
    1st it was never properly ratified

    secondly what it really did was clarify that the income tax was an indirect tax

    Also the Supreme court consitently shot down all proposed national income taxes as unconsitutional. They also ruled that the 16th amednment gave congress no new taxing powers. So if you couldnt be taxed before you could not be after it.

    I'm all for stopping the government from printing money to pay its debts,
    Its not the government priniting it its the fed and the debt is the interest they charge the government on the loan.

    Congress does have the power to create a central bank (which, in reality, is made up of many privately owned regional banks. It isn't one big bank)
    It has no such power.

    The central bank doesn't answer to Congress. It was made that way to be partisan free which was a good idea to separate monetary policy from fiscal policy. It doesn't have to tell Congress a damn thing.


    It was made that way so they could run the nation.

    Paul talks about the fiat system causing inflation. Inflation would happen one way or the other, with or without a fiat system.
    We were pretty much inflation free until the 20th century. And debt free as well until the Fed and the IRS came along. The dollar of 1913 when the Fed and IRS were introduced is now worth 4 cents. We have been robbed. We are working for the bankers. If it is their charge to preserve that value of our money I would have to say they cannot have done much worse of a job of it.

    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 10-25-2007 at 00:16.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    I think Bijo once posted these:

    http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...18677860424204
    http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...45760512239683

    Maybe they're of some use for the debate though they're long.


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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    I think Bijo once posted these:

    http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...18677860424204
    http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...45760512239683

    Maybe they're of some use for the debate though they're long.
    Yup more good stuff. The problem here is you cant just take a casual look at the laws and decide for yourself. Its very deep and convoluted as was the intention of the IRS and the Fed.
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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Hang on a second, am I missing the part explaining that the gold standard wasn't the cause of the Depression or the reason that nations adhering to it were hit harder than those that left it?

    I'll confess to knowing next to nothing about the Federal Reserve and how it all functions, but if Ron Paul's views on the gold standard are anything to go by please forgive me for being somewhat sceptical.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Hang on a second, am I missing the part explaining that the gold standard wasn't the cause of the Depression or the reason that nations adhering to it were hit harder than those that left it?
    The cause of the great depression was the FED. The current chairman recently apologized for it. He said it was a bad experiment that didnt work as planned.

    Oh he also promised never to do it again.
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    1st it was never properly ratified
    How?

    42/50 states ratified it. 4 did not, and 2 didn't vote.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...s_Constitution

    secondly what it really did was clarify that the income tax was an indirect tax
    To be disputed. The courts interpretation of the amendment has changed constantly over time.

    Also the Supreme court consitently shot down all proposed national income taxes as unconsitutional. They also ruled that the 16th amednment gave congress no new taxing powers. So if you couldnt be taxed before you could not be after it.
    Which cases, Gawain? There are a bunch of on it. Was it most recent?


    Its not the government priniting it its the fed and the debt is the interest they charge the government on the loan.
    You do realize Congress can abolish the Federal Reserve, correct? Congress gave the FED the power to do what they are doing. They can take it away.

    Care to explain how the FED is charging the government interest on loans?

    It has no such power.
    Uh, yeah it does through the Federal Reserve Act I showed you. Congress has the power to pass legislation.



    It was made that way so they could run the nation.
    No. It was made that way so one party in the white house/congress could not influence both monetary and fiscal policy.

    The two being separate is a very good idea.

    We were pretty much inflation free until the 20th century. And debt free as well until the Fed and the IRS came along. The dollar of 1913 when the Fed and IRS were introduced is now worth 4 cents. We have been robbed. We are working for the bankers. If it is their charge to preserve that value of our money I would have to say they cannot have done much worse of a job of it.
    *Yawn*

    Interesting chart Gawain. Perhaps you should look closer at it. Inflation holds steady about 15 years after the gold standard is abolished.

    I don't know, could the government's massive spending and debt, cause inflation also?



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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    The cause of the great depression was the FED. The current chairman recently apologized for it. He said it was a bad experiment that didnt work as planned.

    Oh he also promised never to do it again.
    You are right. The FED is to blame a bit for the great depression. Saying it all the Fed's fault is an obvious fallacy though. Anyway, Ill focus on your comment about the FED though:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression#Causes

    Milton Friedman and Benjamin Bernanke, argue that the Great Depression was caused by monetary contraction, which was the consequence of poor policy making by the American Federal Reserve System and continuous crisis in the banking system.[4] By not acting, the Federal Reserve allowed the money supply to shrink by one-third from 1930 to 1931. Friedman argued[5] the downward turn in the economy starting with the stock market crash would have been just another recession. The problem was that some large, public bank failures, particularly the Huntly New York Bank of the United States, produced panic and widespread runs on local banks, and that the Federal Reserve sat idly by while banks fell. He claimed if the Fed had provided emergency lending to these key banks, or simply bought government bonds on the open market to provide liquidity and increase the quantity of money after the key banks fell, all the rest of the banks would not have fallen after the large ones did and the money supply would not have fallen to the extent and at the speed that it did.[6

    So yes, you are right. The Fed is to partially the blame. What is funny though, if they would have intervened via pumping money into the economy they would have likely lessened the severity and length of the depression.

    The irony here is they caused a massive deflation of the dollar.

    One reason why the Federal Reserve did not act to limit the decline of the money supply was regulation. At that time the amount of credit that the Federal Reserve could issue was limited due to laws which required partial gold backing of that credit. By the late 1920's the Federal Reserve had almost hit the limit of allowable credit that could be backed by the gold in its possession. This credit was in the form of Federal Reserve demand notes. Since a "promise of gold" is not as good as "gold in the hand", during the bank panics a portion of those demand notes were redeemed for Federal Reserve gold. Since the Federal Reserve had hit its limit on allowable credit, any reduction in gold in its vaults had to be accompanied by a greater reduction in credit. Several years into the Great Depression the private ownership of gold was declared illegal and reduced the pressure on Federal Reserve gold.
    Gold Standard was good, eh?

    So let's see. The combination of the gold standard and the FED not acting to soften the bust probably helped accelerate and lengthen the greatest recession/depression in United States history.

    Thanks for proving my point.


    *A note, I only posted the cited sections of the wikipedia article.
    Last edited by Ice; 10-25-2007 at 00:58.



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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    How?

    42/50 states ratified it. 4 did not, and 2 didn't vote.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...Constitut ion
    Wiki

    The Law That Never Was

    The Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was never ratified by a majority of the sovereign States.

    This is the Amendment that allegedly entitled the Federal Agent (government) in the federal territory of Washington, D.C. and their private collection company, the IRS, to collect "income tax" was falsely declared to be ratified in February 1913 by Secretary of State Philander Knox.

    After an exhaustive year long search of legislative records in 48 sovereign states (Alaska & Hawaii were not admitted into the Union until after 1913), Bill Benson wrote his fact findings in The Law That Never Was, Vols. 1 & 2. He was able to unequivocally prove that the 16th Amendment was never Constitutionally, properly, or legally ratified. The only record of the 16th Amendment having been confirmed was a proclamation made by the Secretary of State Philander Knox on February 25, 1913, wherein he simply declared it to be "in effect", but never stating it was lawfully ratified.



    WND Exclusive SUNDAY Q&A
    'The law that never was'
    Geoff Metcalf's interview answers question, 'Is 16th Amendment legal?'


    By Geoff Metcalf
    &#169; 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

    A criminal investigator for the Illinois Department of Revenue for approximately 10 years, William J. Benson of South Holland, Illinois has been at the vanguard of debate and controversy surround the 16th Amendment for almost two decades. In 1984 he embarked upon a year-long project to examine the process of the ratification of the 16th Amendment and to determine whether or not it had been lawfully adopted as part of the U.S. Constitution. The culmination of Benson's work is the book, "The Law That Never Was."
    That evening I said, "Okay, the judge has given us our marching orders. The only thing we have to do is go to all 48 states and get the documentation" to see if the documents have any validity. The attorney said, "Bill, you're crazy, you can't do that." I said, "Sure you can."

    Q: How long did it take to do that?

    A: It took a full year. There is not one state -- not one -- that has ratified the 16th Amendment to the United States Constitution. One of the most amazing documents I found was in the national archives in Washington D.C. -- a 16-page memorandum written by Ruben J. Clark, then the attorney for Secretary of State Philander Chase Knox, on February 15, 1913. What he says is that in the certified copies of the amendment passed by the legislatures of the several states ratifying the 16th Amendment, it appears that only four of those resolutions -- Arizona, North Dakota, Tennessee and New Mexico -- have quoted absolutely accurately and correctly what was proposed by Congress. The other 33 resolutions contain either errors of capitalization, spelling or wording. ...
    The law says it must be ratified exactly as written. Letter for letter.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 10-25-2007 at 00:59.
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Work of one man Gawain. Has this been independently verified by multiple sources?

    Until the courts rule against the amendment, it stands.

    I to can make up a bunch of things "I supposedly did" and put it on a website.

    I also like have you make fun of wiki, but fail to put up an scholarly evidence.

    Edit: The irony is, wiki had these "conspiracy theories" listed in the article.

    It says the courts ruled against all of these.

    United States v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986), cert. denied, 107 S.Ct. 187 (1986); Ficalora v. Commissioner, 751 F.2d 85, 85-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9103 (2d Cir. 1984); Sisk v. Commissioner, 791 F.2d 58, 86-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9433 (6th Cir. 1986); United States v. Sitka, 845 F.2d 43, 88-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9308 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 488 U.S. 827 (1988); United States v. Stahl, 792 F.2d 1438, 86-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9518 (9th Cir. 1986), cert. denied, 107 S. Ct. 888 (1987); Brown v. Commissioner, 53 T.C.M. (CCH) 94, T.C. Memo 1987-78, CCH Dec. 43,696(M) (1987); Lysiak v. Commissioner, 816 F.2d 311, 87-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9296 (7th Cir. 1987); Miller v. United States, 868 F.2d 236, 89-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9184 (7th Cir. 1989); United States v. House, 617 F. Supp. 237, 87-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9562 (W.D. Mich. 1985).

    Feel free to read on.
    Last edited by Ice; 10-25-2007 at 01:16.



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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    To put it simply Gawain, for me to believe these claims, I either need to see A) scholarly evidence (not some random crap on a website) by multiple sources to support your claim or a court ruling.



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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Work of one man Gawain. Has this been independently verified by multiple sources?
    Transcript of Dr. Edwin Vieira's Presentation at the National Press Club, June 29, 2000

    So, in what I call "the program of the four I's," Investigate, Inculpate, Indict, Incarcerate, [audience laughter] the first and most important step must be investigation. The machinery of investigation should center around a Citizen's Constitutional Investigatory Commission, composed of legal scholars, historians, other qualified individuals who are capable of assessing and arriving at correct conclusions from pertinent evidence. This Commission, however, must not seek any governmental direction, assistance, or other involvement. Public officials may appear before it as witnesses, and indeed many should be summoned to testify and to submit documentary evidence. But otherwise, no public official should be allowed to participate in such a Commission's work, as any such connection would raise insoluble conflicts of interest.

    The Commission should be empowered to investigate at least four issues.

    First, whether the "16th Amendment" was validly ratified in 1913. That will require an in-depth analysis of all the materials that have been collected in The Law That Never Was and whatever else can be assembled and all of the circumstances that led to the generation of those materials.

    Second, if the Commission determines that the alleged "16th Amendment" was not validly ratified, the Commission should then determine whether a tax on incomes from individual's labor, professions, wages, and salaries, is a direct tax or an excise tax, as those terms are used in Article I, Section 8, Clause 1, and Article I, Section 9, Clause 4, of the Constitution. That's because, as one of the speakers pointed out earlier today, there is some dispute among the government, and also among constitutional scholars, as to what kind of tax an income tax is. And we're going to cover all the bases, or this Commission should cover all the bases. So such an investigation will entail an in-depth analysis of direct and indirect taxes in English and American Colonial law in the century or so preceding the War of Independence and ratification of the Constitution. Because we want to know what those words meant in 1789, not what they mean today to somebody in the Department of Justice or the Internal Revenue Service.

    Third, if a tax on individual income from labor is held to be an excise by the Commission, then the Commission should determine an issue that was also broached earlier this morning, whether such a tax constitutes a badge or incidence of slavery or involuntary servitude, and is therefore unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment. I won't go into this in great detail, but you figure it out. The premise of this tax is that the tax is generated by labor, labor creates this tax. And the tax is taken, in principle, directly from the labor. Which, of course, to the government, has no value except in so far as it produces the wealth that can expropriated. This is precisely the master-slave theory of wealth generation. And I think if one went back to the antebellum American and Colonial literature, you would find a great deal of information on that subject which would verify that interpretation. In any event, that particular issue has to be settled.

    And, finally, if the 16th Amendment was not validly ratified, if a tax on incomes from individual labor is a direct tax, or if such a tax is a badge or incident of slavery, then the Commission should determine why officials in all branches of the national government have enforced this tax since 1913, and in particular, why they have done so since publication of The Law That Never Was and all the litigation on the findings in that book brought in public view this issue.

    One important aspect of such a Commission's work, would be a comprehensive search for documentary evidence, Federal and state Freedom of Information Acts could be used, national archives, state archives, Presidential libraries, compilations of papers of public figures that are maintained in universities, and so forth and so on, all of those need to be searched.

    Another important aspect of the work must be public hearings, hopefully to be held in various places throughout the country, during which testimony will be taken and documentary evidence submitted. This, not only for the Commission's immediate work, but for the purpose of educating people in the various locales about what's going on and what these issues are.

    And eventually the Commission should publish its findings, together with all testimony and documentary evidence suitably printed and bound, what, forty, fifty, sixty, a hundred, volumes, right? Reminds me of that wonderful work that was produced in 1945-46, Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, we could almost use that title. These materials then should be presented immediately to Congress, the Secretary of State, the President, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, the Legislatures of the several states that were involved in the ratification of the "16th Amendment". If the Commission's findings establish the tax on individual income from labor is unconstitutional, each of these governmental recipients should be instructed to take appropriate action. Now, you note that the word I use is "instructed." Not, asked, petitioned, begged, or implored. For, faced with findings that the income tax is unconstitutional, theirs will be the constitutional duty to act. I presume, however, being something of a cynic, ... you know people often call me a pessimist. And I like to ask them, you know, what's the definition of a pessimist? A pessimist is an optimist who knows the facts [audience laughter]. I've been in this business a while. And it gets dirtier the deeper you dig. So, I presume, that no matter what findings are presented to these public officials, they will not disestablish the individual income tax on their own, anymore than they would disestablish the Federal Reserve system, simply because someone such as myself proves that the constitutional dollar is a silver coin, not a piece of paper [audience applause]. Or any more than they will give up their fantastic dreams for a New World Order simply because the Declaration of Independence establishes the United States as a nation among nations, not as a satrapy of some global empire [audience applause].

    Rather, I anticipate that they will do everything within their power to obstruct, obfuscate, and delay, if not derail entirely, the Commission's investigation, and then to criticize, belittle, and ridicule the Commission's findings. Because, let's face the facts, the income tax is one of the major props of the power structure
    . Enough said! At that point, though, finally armed with the whole truth on one side, and face to face with the political classes' intransigence on the other, the American people will be forced to decide whether they are sheep or men, whether they can mount a grass-roots political movement to throw these elitists out of office once and for all and reassert self-government in this country, or accept the other alternative.

    It will be very interesting to see what happens. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen [audience applause].
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  23. #23
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    .........

    That answers absolutely nothing other than if it was one person researching or not. I'm still waiting to see the official sources they used, the conclusion they came to, and the legal basis for this conclusion.

    Come on Gawain. You are the one challenging the government here. Surely you can do better than crappy conspiracy theory websites?

    Have you any input on those court cases I posted?

    Detailed studies perhaps?

    Oh by the way, feel free to address my other posts specifically about the federal the reserve.



  24. #24
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    First Bank of the United States

    Second Bank of the United States

    Panic of 1837



    McCulloch v. Maryland justifies both 1st and 2nd.

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Constitution
    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes
    They can collect taxes. Hurray!

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Constitution
    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin,
    They can also regulate money.

    Well, they can delegate the responsibility that they have, since it is explicitly given to them in the Constitution and not given over to state powers.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  25. #25
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Come on Gawain. You are the one challenging the government here. Surely you can do better than crappy conspiracy theory websites?
    A simple reading of the constitution will do.


    Lets argue one point at a time. Does the constitution say that congress can coin money(not print money) and regulate the value thereof?

    * Article I, Section 8, Clause 2 . The Congress shall have Power…To borrow Money on the credit of the United States.

    * Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 . The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.

    * Article I, Section 8, Clause 6 . The Congress shall have Power…To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States.
    Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 originally said

    * Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 . The Congress shall have Power…To emit bills, coin Money,regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.
    But it was struck down as they said paper money would lead to ruin.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  26. #26
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    And
    they also said that slaves were 3/5ths a person.
    Only white, landowning males could vote.
    Lead was good for you!

    Some ideas are bad from the beginning, others are run out because they are bad. But considering your 'strict' interpretation, why are we allowing only Russia to be part of the Security council? The Ukrainians, Belorussians and everyone else in the former U.S.S.R. should have a seat, since they were Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Then again, why give a seat to them?
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  27. #27
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Well Gawain, I decided to look up one of the cases.

    Marvin D. MILLER, Plaintiff-Appellant,
    v.
    UNITED STATES of America and Internal Revenue Service,
    Defendants-Appellees.
    No. 87-2969.
    United States Court of Appeals,
    Seventh Circuit.
    Submitted Aug. 30, 1988. [FN*]
    http://www.quatloos.com/taxscams/protcase/miller.htm

    In the eyes of the authors, the most damning evidence of the illegality of sixteenth amendment is a 1913 memorandum from the Solicitor of the Department of State to then Secretary of State Knox outlining the minor grammatical discrepancies in the instruments ratified in many of the states. This circuit has squarely addressed the merits of the ratification argument in two recent cases. United States v. Foster, 789 F.2d 457, 462-63 (7th Cir.1986) (73 years of application of the amendment is very persuasive on the question of validity); United States v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250, 1253-54 (7th Cir.1986) (amendment treated as properly adopted under the "enrolled bill rule"). In Thomas, we explained that: Benson and Beckman did not discover anything; they rediscovered something that Secretary Knox considered in 1913. Thirty-eight states ratified the sixteenth amendment, and thirty-seven sent formal instruments of the ratification to the Secretary of State.... Only four instruments repeat the language of the sixteenth amendment exactly as Congress approved it. The others contain errors of diction, capitalization, punctuation, and spelling.... [the defendant] insists that because the states did not approve exactly the same text, the amendment did not go into effect. Secretary Knox considered this argument. The Solicitor of the Department of State drew up a list of the errors in the instruments and--taking into account both the triviality of the deviations and the treatment of earlier amendments that had experienced more substantial problems--advised the Secretary that he was authorized to declare the amendment adopted. The Secretary did so.... [his] decision is now beyond review. Id. at 1253 (emphasis in original). See also United States v. Stahl, 792 F.2d 1438, 1439 (9th Cir.1986), cert. denied 479 U.S. 1036, 107 S.Ct. 888, 93 L.Ed.2d 840 (1987) (propriety of the ratification process is a political question).
    By all means though, don't believe me. See, it's easy to look up past rulings about this kind of stuff. Give it a try.



  28. #28
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    These arguments against the 16th amendment mainly hinge on nitpicking over a comma instead of a semi-colon or a capitalized vs uncapitalized letter. Ridiculous complaints imo, and the courts have agreed.

    On a side note, I see that Pennsylvania never ratified or even took up the amendment- good on us.

    The Federal Reserve seems pretty cut and dry to me- congress is allowed to coin money, regulate the value, ect. By extension, if Congress decides to setup an organization to do so on it's behalf, it's still done by the will of Congress.

    edit: People can argue against both the income tax and the Fed, but I think the Constitutional arguments against both fall flat.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 10-25-2007 at 02:00.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  29. #29
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Some ideas are bad from the beginning,
    Yes like the Fed. Did you look at that Graph I posted.

    Secretary Knox considered this argument. The Solicitor of the Department of State drew up a list of the errors in the instruments and--taking into account both the triviality of the deviations and the treatment of earlier amendments that had experienced more substantial problems--advised the Secretary that he was authorized to declare the amendment adopted. The Secretary did so.... [his] decision is now beyond review.
    So he could simply over rule the constitution? This is nonsense. You people better wake up as to whats been going on here. And how about just adressing my point on the Fed 1st.

    Also the 2nd bank was shut down after only 10 years because of corupption and we went almost 100 years without one and did fine


    Try this
    The Constitution of the United States
    &
    Honest Money


    So there we have a reiteration of the most critical issues contained within the seven monetary clauses of the Constitution, including a discussion of legal tender thrown in for good measure. We will now offer a “list” of summary points.

    * The Constitution mandates a monetary system of gold and silver coin – NO BILLS OF CREDIT (paper money).

    * The STANDARD of this system is the Silver Dollar – 371.25 grains of fine silver – a SPECIFIC WEIGHT OF SILVER, as in Honest Weights and Measures.

    * There was no gold dollar at this time, only an amount of gold exchangeable for a silver dollar according to the exchange rate of 15 to 1.

    * Congress was granted the power to COIN & to BORROW MONEY, not print, emit, or create money.

    * The States could not force anyone to accept anything but silver and gold as legal tender in payment of debt.

    The above are the main points that most “experts” in this subject would agree upon as being the main acceptable points denoting our constitutional monetary system. Now we will discuss a few points that we disagree with conventional monetary historians and theorists on.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  30. #30
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ron Paul Introduces Legislation to Abolish the Federal Reserve

    Yes like the Fed. Did you look at that Graph I posted.

    Sure did. Did you read any of the arguments I posted?

    So he could simply over rule the constitution? This is nonsense. You people better wake up as to whats been going on here. And how about just adressing my point on the Fed 1st.
    Of course not. He can rule. Then it can be challenged it court. If the court rules it's constitutional it is. If not, it isn't. You better wake up. Like I said, why don't you review all those court cases I posted on the issues. Also, ever hear of stare decisis?

    I did address your point about the FED. Look above.

    Also the 2nd bank was shut down after only 10 years because of corupption and we went almost 100 years without one and did fine
    Proof, or just more garbage rhetoric? What do you consider "fine", Gawain?



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